Subject: EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes (10/6/00)

From: [email-masked] (Guy de Burgh)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:06:19 -0700

Date: 10/6/00

SUBJECT: 10/6/00 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

VOTING MEMBERS AND 2000 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
3Com                           Roy Leventhal*
Agilent (EEsof, etc.)          Mark Chang
Ansoft Corporation             (Eric Bracken)
Applied Simulation Technology  Raj Raghuram, Norio Matsui, Fred Balistreri
Avanti                         Nikolai Bannov
Cadence Design                 Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff, Ian Dodd*,
                               Donald Telian, Patrick Dos Santos
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq, Irfan Elahi, John Fisher
Compaq                         [Bob Haller], Peter LaFlamme, Ron Bellomio,
                               Shafier Rahman, Doug Burns
Cypress                        (Rajesh Manapat)
EMC Corporation                Fabrizio Zanella, Brian Arsenault,
                               Terry Jernberg, Alexander Nosovitski,
                               Elena Gutman, Shan Haq
Fairchild Semiconductor        Craig Klem
HyperLynx (& Pads Software)    Matthew Flora*, [Kellee Crisafulli],
  (Now merged with Innoveda)   Gene Garat, John Angulo*, [Al Davis],
                               Lynne Green
IBM                            Michael Cohen, Greg Edlund*, Jerry Hayes
Innoveda (Viewlogic Systems)   Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Jun Tian,
                               Cary Mandel, Brad Griffin, (Jon Powell)
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi, Will Hobbs,
                               Richard Mellitz, Charles Phares, Meir Nakar,
                               Sigeti Gabi, Tudor Secasiu, Dave Lorang
LSI Logic                      (Larry Barnes)
Mentor Graphics (& Veribest)   Bob Ross*, Tom Dagostino, Malcolm Ash,
                               Kim Owen, Jean Oudinot, Sherif Hammad,
                               Hazam Hegazy, Weston Beal, Ken Bakalar
Micron Technology              Randy Wolff*, Son Huynh*
Mitsubishi                     Shahab Ahmed, Carleen Murphy, Scott Estrich
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella
Motorola                       Ron Werner
National Semiconductor         Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Tony Sinker, Kathy Breda,
                               Jinhua Chen
Nortel Networks                Steve Coe, Calvin Trowell, Hassan Ali
Philips Semiconductor          D.C. Sessions, Todd Andersen
  (& VLSI Technology)
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Robinson-Nugent, Inc.          (Alexander Barr)
Siemens AG                     Bernhard Unger, Gerald Bannert
SiQual                         Scott McMorrow, Wis Macomson
Texas Instruments              Stephen Nolan, Ramzi Ammar, Mac McCaughey,
                               Thomas Fisher, Jean-Claude Perrin,
                               Jean-Yves Oberle
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky, Steven Corey
Tyco Electronics (AMP)         (Russell Moser)
Via Technologies               (Weber Chuang)
Zuken (& Incases)              Werner Rissiek, John Berrie

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2000:
Actel Corp.                    Silvia Montoya
Advansis                       Mikio Kiyono
Aerospatiale Matra CCR         Lionel Dreux, Julien Boullie
Alcatel (Lannion, Bell)        Daniel Peron, Steven Criel
Brocade Communications         Robert Badal
Cereva Networks                Bob Haller
ECI Telecom                    Daniel Adar
EIA                            Cecilia Fleming*
Fraunhofer Institute           Michael Kurten
Jet Propulsion Lab             John Treichlew
KAW                            Shinichi Maeda
Hewlett Packard                Paul Gregory
RCI                            Chris Rode
Rockwell Collins               Ron Hau
Signals & Systems Engineering  Tom Hawkins
ST Micorelectronics            Fabrice Boissiere, Pierre Saintot
Sun Microsystems               Victor Chang
Thomson-CSF                    Savenrio Lerose, Pascal Vaslin, Thierry Zak,
                               Sylvie Lasserre
Transfer                       Hans Klos, Wilco Hamhuis
Xilinx, Inc.                   Susan Wu
Independent, Consultant        Hideki Fukuda, Al Davis

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:

  Date                Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode
  October 27, 2000    (916) 356-9200   8-160059         4748326
  November 17, 2000   (916) 356-9200   8-160063         1329512
  December 8, 2000    (916) 356-9200   To be issued
  December 22, 2000   (916) 356-9200   To be issued

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Innoveda and HyperLynx have merged.  Per the precedent set by JEDEC, we will
still treat them as independent companies with 2 votes for the remainder of
2000.  They will continue to be listed separately.  This honors the fact that
HyperLynx (Pads Software) and Innoveda had purchased independent memberships
for 2000 to the IBIS Open Forum.

Randy Wolff and Son Huynh from Micron Technology both produce IBIS models for
Micron and are interested in programs to produce more accurate models.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Bob Ross reported that Protel has purchased the ibischk3 parser license.

Bob also reported that Year 2001 EIA IBIS Open Forum budgets are being
proposed and reviewed by the IBIS Officers.  We continue to have 34 members,
but may get another one.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The August 25, 2000 and September 14, 2000 IBIS Minutes were approved without
any changes.

The AR's will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Cecilia Fleming has fixed a bad default link on the ibis home page for

  http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/

Mike LaBonte has checked it out and it appears to work correctly.

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Mike Labonte updated the IBIS Model page and include a link to MMC Networks.
IBIS Models are available by direct contact.  One needs to contact:

  http://www.mmcnet.com/

to get user name and password for access.  A customer supplied Mike with this
link.  Send reports of any new links to Mike. (His address is at the end of
these Minutes.)

Bob Ross reported an updated link from Lucent:

  http://www.lucent.com/micro/netcom/orca/s_resources/ibis.html

and also some example models from UTMC Microelectronics Systems

  http://www.utmc.com/products/80196_examples.html

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None.

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Bob Ross will work with Stephen Peters
and Cecilia Fleming to help draft header information based on some updated
requirements from IEC.  Others are welcome to help.  The IBIS officers will
probably help review the information.  Bob noted that we need to supply (1) a
precise scope, (2) normative references, if any, (3) an Introduction covering
background and future activities, and (4) and an introductory note on the
cover of the FDIS simply stating that IBIS Version 2.1 is out of date and is
being replaced by IBIS Version 3.2.

AR - Bob Ross and Stephen Peters supply the required information to Cecilia
Fleming by October 13, 2000.

- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
(IMIC) - No report.

- IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation
(formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross
had no report and restated that he is waiting for some updated information
that he can upload or distribute.

- JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - D.C. Sessions invites IBIS members
to participate at the next JEDEC JC-16 and JC-42 meetings December 6-7, 2000
in Kona, Hawaii.  Contact D.C. if you are interested for a Chairman's
invitation at his ibis e-mail account:

  [email-masked]

PCB CONFERENCE EAST IBIS SUMMIT MEETING REVIEW
Bob Ross asked for comments on the recent IBIS Summit Meeting held on
September 14, 2000 in Worcester, Massachusetts at the same time as the PCB
Conference East.

Stephen Peters felt it was a good meeting.  Bob commented that we had more
coverage of future topics (Connectors, IBIS Futures) than in the past, but
we also had a user's perspective and a I/O Buffer Accuracy Report sample.

Mike LaBonte commented that he did not sufficiently raise an issue regarding
different levels of accuracy needed for different types of analysis (timing,
cross-talk, etc.) that was within Roy Leventhal's presentation.  This
discussion could take place on the IBIS reflectors.

Bob Ross reported the invoices have been sent to the four co-sponsors: Cadence,
HyperLynx (now Innoveda), Mentor Graphics and North East Systems Associates
(NESA).

The meeting documents and presentations are now uploaded at:

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/sep00/

Roy indicated that he will supply an updated version with notes.  Greg Edlund
supplied an I/O Buffer Accuracy report sample (from which the presentation
slides were taken).  Greg plans to also supply a C utility for uploading to
correlations as soon as he can take out some proprietary code.

Bob expects to hold an IBIS Summit Meeting next year and will start setting
the date and location as soon as he finds out the PCB Conference East details
for next year.

FUTURE SUMMIT PLANNING
The next IBIS Summit Meeting is planned on January 29, 2000 in Santa Clara,
California along with DesignCon 2001 (January 29 - February 1, 2000).  Bob
Ross noted that National Semiconductor is a co-sponsor of this meeting
and will provide the lunch.  Milt Swartz will continue to assist in the
arrangements of this meeting.  DesignCon is the other co-sponsor as a result
of IBIS Associate Sponsorship of DesignCon 2001.  The early planning has been
done.  We also plan to have a passive IBIS booth on the exhibit floor for 
literature and interaction.  More activity will occur in several months.

Bob is also starting to make meeting arrangements for the European IBIS Summit
meeting to be held March, 2000 in Munich, Germany along with the Design
Automation and Testing (DATE 2001) conference and exhibit.  Bob believes that
we will have co-sponsorship again from Mentor Graphics and Zuken (Incases) and
invites other co-sponsors as well.

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
John Angulo reported that he has just received a new IBIS model for the
committee to review.

John also indicated that as a result of the recent merger, Innoveda now has
three reviewers.  Mentor and Cadence have the other reviewers.  He needs some
reviewers from other EDA companies.  Bob Ross will work off-line to give him
some possible contacts.  After some discussion, we felt that it was all right
for Innoveda to have several reviewers (representing Innoveda and the former
HyperLynx products).  The reviewers are chosen only from EDA tool vendors so
that the models are reviewed and tested in a cross-section of EDA tools by
people who will work with the latest releases and understand the tool issues
that need to be considered.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW (CONTINUED)
Bob Ross reported that a Connector Working Group meeting was held on
September 5, 2000 prepare for the IBIS Summit Meeting on September 14, 2000.

No subsequent meeting was held.  However the next meetings are planned on
October 10 and October 17, 2000.  Kellee Crisafulli will not be able to
participate since he has left HyperLynx (Innoveda) and moved on to a non-EDA
industrial position.  We will miss his driving force and contributions, but
the remaining members will try to finalize the document.  Ian Dodd mentioned
that there has not been much committee discussion on the pseudo-languages for
automapping (Swath Matrix expansion).  That should be part of the discussion
for the next meeting.

IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx)
Bob Ross stated that an IBIS Futures Working Group meeting was held on
September 5, 2000 to prepare for the September 14, 2000 IBIS Summit Meeting.
Another meeting is scheduled on October 10, 2000.

Mike LaBonte reported on the October 3, 2000 meeting.  There was not much
progress to report.  Arpad Muranyi is on sabbatical.  Al Davis is prototyping
the macro language software.  We did discuss issuing a BNF format.  Mike also
mentioned an idea of working with the Connector Specification Working Group
when we consider package and internal die interconnection issues.

IBISCHK3 BUG TRACKING
Bob Ross reported on the ibischk3 parser development status based on a recent
e-mail from Atul Agarwal.  He has not done any work since finishing
several BUGs several months ago.  When he returns from a business trip in
late October 2000, he will give an estimate on how long it will take to do the
remaining BUGs.  The currently outstanding BUGs are BUG36 - BUG46.  One or
two corrections are needed to bring ibischk3 in compliance with the the
current Specification.

- BUG47 -  Change Waveform Mismatch Warning to Error and Warning
  Mike LaBonte introduced BUG47.  Currently ibischk3 issues a Warning message
  when the V-T waveform table end points values deviate from the calculated
  end point values based on the I-V tables by more than 2% of the calculated
  range of DC end points.  BUG47 keeps this check, but adds and Error message
  if the end point mismatch exceeds 10% (the Warning message is then not
  issued.)

  Bob Ross stated that we had already discussed this in the August 25, 2000
  meeting.  The value 10% was regarded as a reasonable value showing lack of
  correlation to justify issuing an Error versus a Warning message.

  Ian Dodd raised an issue that some measured lack of correlation may be
  based on DC measurements being done using DC methodology rather than using
  AC methods at the same clock frequency as the V-T measurements (such as 
  would be caused by different internal thermal effect).  This sparked some
  discussion.  The main point, however, remains that the specification 
  expects that the V-T tables do correlate with the I-V data.  So this test
  remains valid.

  Bob classified BUG47 as Enhancement, Low and Open.  Mike stated that he
  would also have suggested the same classification for BUG47.

  Bob planned to forward BUG47 to Atul for fixing.   Matthew Flora commented
  that V-T and I-V mismatch was one of the major problems with IBIS models
  that are being reviewed.  He suggested more descriptive Warning and Error
  messages because many people do not understand what this message implies.
  Matthew also suggested that the actual percentage mismatch be reported when
  this message is issued.

  Bob expanded that we would need two reported actual percentages for each
  Error or Warning for the starting voltage and ending voltage.  We discussed
  various aspects of this issue.  Bob stated that we need to agree on the
  amended message warnings before releasing BUG47 to Atul.  Matthew and Mike
  should work together on this.  We will plan to review the revised wording
  at the next IBIS meeting.

AR - Matthew Flora work with Mike LaBonte to revise the message report text
of BUG47.

BIRD61.1 - ENHANCED CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEIVERS
Not Discussed.

BIRD64.1 - PACKAGE MODEL SELECTOR
Bob Ross introduced BIRD64.1.  It was originally issued by Arpad Muranyi in
October and November 1999 and has been discussed in the past.  At the August
27, 2000 meeting we ran out of time before considering it for a vote.

Bob briefly outlined that BIRD64.1 introduced the [Package Model Selector]
keyword under which a number of possible package names were listed.  Each
of these could be selected through an EDA tool interface or through scripts
or programs.  The main motivation for BIRD64.1 was to allow selection of
package options (particularly tolerances) automatically.  Currently, just
loading replacement IBIS models with new packages is not considered a 
satisfactory option.

Bob emphasized that the major reason for BIRD64.1 was to test electrical
variations of package models.  For example, even mode and odd mode package
models give some corner cases for considering common mode and differential
coupling situations and their simplified electrical characteristics.  Some
package tolerances also can be included.  Other options were listed:

  Do nothing - rely on just loading in replacement models
  Adopt BIRD64.1 as written
  Adopt a convention closer to the [Model Selector] conventions (this includes
    two parameters and some global scoping and different syntax)
  Expand the [Package Model] keyword to have typ-min-max columns

Bob commented that some of the other options would be difficult to implement
because of some current IBIS syntax conventions.  For example, model names
for [Model Selector] are single-words with a maximum of 20 characters.  Model
names for [Define Package Model] can be multi-word names with a maximum of
40 characters.

A limitation on BIRD64.1 as written is that the list of package model names
do not have any electrical information concerning typ-min-max.  The list can
be in any order and for any number of corners.  The user would have to know
beforehand the ordering convention and content for each [Package Model
Selector] list and program the automated application accordingly.  If a 
typ-min-max ordering were given by another alternative above, then we would
always require the typ column to comply with existing IBIS conventions for
other keywords.

Bob then asked for other comments prior to calling for a vote.  Mike LaBonte
stated BIRD64.1 did not declare the scoping requirements.  It is not stated
where the [Package Model Selector] can appear in an IBIS file, and to which
[Component] it applies.  After looking at BIRD64.1, Bob agreed with the
comment.  Bob indicated that he assumed that unlike [Model Selector], [Package
Model Selector] was scoped with [Component] in a manner similar to [Package
Model].  Bob also indicated that this change contains enough technical text
to require releasing an updated BIRD64.2 before voting for approval.

Roy Leventhal commented that [Package Model Selector] was not intended to
support different packages.  The example in BIRD64.1 shows both a set of
choices for package tolerances (odd mode, even mode) and also a choice for
two packages (plastic and ceramic).  We did not elaborate on the choice for
different packages.  However one implication is that we cannot use the
[Package Model Selector] to support packages with different pin numbers.  
Different part numbers should be used in this case consistent with different
part naming conventions.  Different packages with the same pin number would
be permitted, but the main reason for the [Package Model Selector] keyword is
to support the need for issuing tolerance variations on package models and to
support automated analysis using such models.

John Angulo asked whether further reflector discussion was needed because
BIRD64.1 was not finalized.  Bob answered yes.  Roy called for a vote on
whether BIRD64.1 should be rejected at this time (a possible option which
would eliminate the need for any further work) - NO, or whether BIRD64.1
should be held open for further processing - YES.  The vote was a unanimously
YES that we should continue processing BIRD64.1.  (This was NOT a vote to
approve BIRD64.1.)

Bob stated that we need to make the changes to BIRD64.1 and issue BIRD64.2 so
we can review and vote on the actual text of the added comments.

AR - The IBIS Committee (Arpad Muranyi is on sabbatical and no one else was
specifically tasked to do this) to issue BIRD64.2 to address Mike LaBonte's
scoping comments and to add Roy Leventhal's comments that [Package Model
Selector] is not intended to be used for just package selections.

100 POINTS ISSUE
Bob Ross asked Ian Dodd to issue a BIRD on this subject as an AR.

AR - Ian Dodd issue a BIRD on allowing 1000 point Waveform tables.

BIRD65 - C_comp REFINEMENTS
Not discussed.

BIRD66 - [Model Spec] Vref ADDITION
Not discussed.

NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, October 27, 2000 from
8:00 AM to 10:00 AM.  BIRD64.2 is scheduled for a vote.
==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-209
            2111 NE 25th Ave.
            Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Manager, Innoveda
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010-8437

LIBRARIAN:  Mike LaBonte (978) 262-6496, Fax: (978) 446-6798
            [email-masked]
            Senior Technologist, Cadence Design Systems
            270 Billerica Road
            Chelmsford, MA 01824

WEBMASTER:  Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
            [email-masked]
            Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems
            170 West Tasman Drive
            San Jose, CA 95134-1706

POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Development Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200
            Redmond, WA 98052

This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt,
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eigroup/ibis/ibis.htm

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================