Subject: IBIS Minutes 4/15/94

From: Derrick Duehren <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 13:05:32 PST

Text item: Text_1

 My apologies  I thought I had sent out the minutes, but looking back at my 
 mail log, it appears that I didn't.  Here they are.
 - Derrick
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    April 20, 1994

From:    Will Hobbs (503) 696-4369, fax (503) 696-4210
         [email-masked]
         XTG Modeling Manager, Intel Corp., Chairperson, IBIS Open Forum
         Intel Corporation
         5200 NE Elam Young Pkwy, Hillsboro, Oregon 97124 USA
         and
         Derrick Duehren (503) 696-4299, fax (503) 696-4904
         [email-masked]
         Intel Program Manager

Subject: Minutes from IBIS Open Forum 4/15/94

To:
Anacad                        Steffen Rochel
Ansoft                        Henri Maramis
Atmel Corporation             Dan Terry
Cadence Design                Sandeep Khanna, Chris Reed,
                              Kumar*
Contec                        Maah Sango, Clark Cochran
Digital Equipment Corp.       Barry Katz*
High Design Technology        Michael Smith
HyperLynx                     Steve Kaufer, Kellee Crisafulli
IBM                           Jay Diepenbrock
IBM-Motorola alliance         Lynn Warriner, Hoa Quoc, John Burnett
Integrity Engineering         Greg Doyle, Wayne Olhoft
Intel Corporation             Stephen Peters*, Don Telian, Will Hobbs*
                              Arpad Muranyi*, D. Duehren*, Lisa Huang
Interconnectix, Inc.          Bob Ross*
Intergraph                    Ian Dodd, David Wiens
IntuSoft                      Charles Hymowitz
Logic Modeling Corp.          Randy Harr
Mentor Graphics               Greg Seltzer, Ravender Goyal
Meta-Software                 Mei Wong, Mei-Ling Wei
MicroSim                      Arthur Wong, Jerry Brown, Graham Bell
National Semiconductor        Syed Huq*
North Carolina State U.       Paul Franzon, Michael Steer, Steve Lipa
Performance Signal Integrity  Vivek Raghawan, Eric Bracken*
Quad Design                   Jon Powell*
Quantic Labs                  Mike Ventham, Zhen Mu
Racal-Redac                   John Berrie
Siemens Nixdorf               Werner Rissiek*, Olaf Rethmeier
Texas Instruments             Bob Ward*
Thomson-CSF/SCTF              Jean Lebrun
Zeelan Technology             Hiro Moriyasu, George Opsahl*

CC:
Intel Corporation             Randy Wilhelm, Jerry Budelman,
                              Intel IBIS team

In the list above, attendees at the 4/15/94 meeting are indicated by *

Upcoming Meetings: The room and bridge numbers for future IBIS 
teleconferences are listed below:
                    Date        Bridge Number   Reservation #
                    4/29/94    (415) 904-8944,  721618
                    5/13/94    (415) 904-8944,  721619
                    5/20/94    Face-to-face, editing committee

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM PST (15:00 to 17:00 UTC).  We try 
to have agendas out 7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes 
out within 7 days after.  When you call into the meeting, ask for the 
IBIS Open Forum and give the bridge operator the reservation number.

If you know of someone new who wants to join the e-mail reflector 
([email-masked]) send e-mail to [email-masked].

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

************************************************************************
******                     General Announcement                  *******
******   We will attempt to come to closure on all BIRDs         *******
******   through BIRD 11 at the 4/29/94 meeting.                 *******
************************************************************************

------------------------------------------------------------------------

4/15/94 Meeting Agenda
----------------------

Check-in
Intros of new IBIS participants                          Hobbs
Review of previous meeting's minutes                     Hobbs
Miscellany/Announcements                                 Hobbs
Opens for new issues                                     All
New models available                                     All
IBIS 2.0 Ratification/DAC                                Hobbs, Ward
-  Rev 2.0 Ratification Summit (6/9)
-  Birds of a Feather session (6/8)
IBIS Cookbook                                            Hobbs
BIRD 8, Spec. of V/I data monotonicity                   Crisafulli
BIRD 9, Other model types                                Ross
BIRD 10, Coupling effects in package models              Bracken
BIRD 11, Sign of current checking                        Hobbs, All
Egg 2, Variable ramp                                     Peters
BIRD 2, VIH, VIL Thresholds for Inputs                   Powell
Simulation temperatures (new BIRD?)                      Warriner
Ramp measurement                                         Reid, Ross,
                                                         et. al.
Wrap-up, Next Meeting Plans                              Hobbs
From this point on, we propose tabling until after 2.0:
Formal BNF notation (BIRD?)                              Reed, Harr
High freq. and EMI                                       Goyal, 
                                                         et. al.
Phased turn-on/off of multiple devices                   Powell

1.  Intros of new IBIS participants
New participants: None.

2.  Review of Pervious Meeting's Minutes
There were no corrections made to last month's minutes.

3.  Miscellany/Announcements
We have been experiencing problems on the reflector/internet (messages 
bouncing, 3 attempts to get agenda out with delayed acknowledge to 
sender but everyone got it 3 times, etc.

AR Derrick: See if anything can be done to improve the 
internet/reflector performance.

Derrick suggested eliminating non-active people from this document's to: 
list as participants are also listed in the roster document.  Consensus 
was to leave the list as it is.

4.  Opens for new issues
Add to the agenda, Non-monotonic data (Muranyi/Powell)

Derrick is converting the IBIS Overview document into an EDN article.  
An abstract has been sent to EDN, which has acknowledged, but no 
activity.

5.  New models available                      

6.  IBIS 2.0 Ratification/DAC                 
    -  May 20 Editing Committee 
       AR Derrick: Get room, time, hotel info out to May 20 participants 
       within next week.

       AR Will: Engage Paul Munsey after 5/20 for parsability study of 
       the proposed version 2.0 to minimize a need for a version 2.1 
       soon after 2.0.

    -  Rev 2.0 Ratification Summit (6/9/94)
       AR Kumar:  Arrange a room for 2.0 ratification session, all day,
       preferably at the conference, though possibly at the Cadence 
       office in San Diego.

    -  Birds of a Feather session (6/8/94)
       11 RSVPs so far, meeting 10 minimum, DAC will assign room at the 
       Marriot, overhead, etc.  Will will give quick (5-7 minutes) 
       icebreaker intro to the group at 5:30 p.m., then open the 
       discussion to everyone.  Bob Ward is also getting posters made by 
       a graphic artist using IBIS logos from an Intel artist.
       Any additional people planning to attend should sign up when they 
       register for DAC.

9.  IBIS Cookbook  
The cookbook is in the second round of internal review.  It may be ready 
for limited review by participants as early as the next (4/29) meeting.  
Those who would like to participate in the review should send email 
requests to Derrick.

11. BIRD 8, Spec. of V/I data monotonicity    
Kellee was not present -- no discussion.

12. BIRD 9, Other model types                 
Bob Ross recapped the additional components added to the BIRD (series, 
ac terminators).  Stephen is concerned about the fact we have no way to 
tell how series resistors connect in a package.  Arpad: Does this 
address terminators in buffers or separately?  Bob R: this is a problem; 
it is intended to represent terminations, but it is stated as if it is 
part of a buffer.  Bob W: is this a simple, pure resistor, or a 
saturable resistor?  Bob R: simple resistor.  

Other discussion addressed series diodes, saturable r-packs (do such 
things exist?), etc.  Arpad: "IBIS was intended to be a buffer 
description, and BIRD 9 looks like we are trying to extend it to include 
more general components.  This may be valid, but that wasn't the 
original intent."  Jon sees it as just a way to get data from vendors to 
simulators.  Kumar and others feel we should not make IBIS too general 
yet.  Bob is willing to withdraw the BIRD as it is at this time, since 
it appears we can't reach consensus and defer it to post-2.0 
discussions.  Bob W. will consider generating BIRD 9.2 for 2.0 
consideration, focusing solely on termination packages, without series 
resistors being addressed.

13. BIRD 10, Coupling effects in package models
Eric will update the BIRD to include alphanumeric pin names for PGA-type 
packages.

Eric posed the question of whether we want to include package data in 
same file rather than in a separate file, which generated a lengthy 
discussion discussing the pros and cons of each approach.  

Single-file approach:
+  Keeps everything together
-  Libraries of devices that share package types will require much more 
   storage space if package info is duplicated in each file.

Multiple-file approach:
+  Enables mix and match buffer descriptions with various packages 
   (multiple models, 1 package description; multiple packages, 1 model)
+  Enables easy updates to packages that affect a library of parts.
-  Potential for filename overlaps, esp. with 8/3 character DOS filename
   limitation.  (File name inside file could be required to include 
   creation date, etc. to ensure it is unique.  Company codes?)
=  Package and model-description files should be kept in the same 
   directory.

We need a model moderator for vhdl.org to pass files through the Golden 
Parser and to avoid same-name different models.  We will talk about this 
at DAC.

Consensus was reached that we will allow separate package models.  We 
need to make clear that we are not excluding nor mandating sparse versus 
banded versus full matrix representation.

AR Eric: Create BIRD 10.1 with alphanumeric pin names, and make it 
explicit that the package model can be either in the file or in a 
separate .pkg file.  We will vote on which takes priority if both exist 
at the next meeting.

14. BIRD 11, Sign of current checking

Kellee was not present.  Bob R. questions whether a table of zeros would 
pass or not?  He thinks a slight clarification might be a good idea.  
The editing committee could clean it up, if needed.  Discussion tabled 
until the next meeting.  The Golden Parser is the standard; all rules 
must be checked by the GP.

AR Bob R: Address your concerns with Kellee.

15. Egg 2, Variable ramp
Stephen pointed out that this Egg could be used to put out "Golden 
Waveforms" and "Golden Load Topologies".  Jon also suggests that we 
could avoid the ramp specification altogether if we specified the output 
waveform into a pull-up load and a pull-down load and let the simulator 
vendors decide what the ramp times were.  We'd still need pull-up and 
pull-down V/I tables, the rise-time data can still be there, but the 
golden waveform could supplant the ramp table if the simulator vendor 
believes it can do better with the waveform.

The data should be in raw form, not percent voltage/percent time.  We 
still have to decide or specify whether the package is included in the 
waveform.  We would also need the complete environment for creating the 
waveform, but this would enable the models to contain sanity-
check/verification within the models.  Consensus was that this is a step 
in the right direction.  We will attempt to get this into Version 2.0.

AR Stephen (With Jon, Bob R, and Arpad):  Collaborate on turning this 
into a BIRD.  Stephen to set up a bridge number for discussion.

AR Jon:  Share some experimental data with Stephen et. al. to discuss 
prior to the conference call.

16. BIRD 2, VIH, VIL Thresholds for Inputs     
Jon needs a compendium of past BIRDs.  

AR Bob R:  Send Jon your rollup of V1.1x so he can check existing passed 
syntax and repost the BIRD for discussion next meeting.

17. Simulation temperatures (new BIRD?)        
We need a new BIRD to change the spec. to be explicit that simulation 
temperatures are only guidelines.  Jon suggests a temperature keyword to 
specify min/max.

AR Bob W:  Submit an Egg 3.0 to the reflector regarding this issue.

18. Ramp measurement                           
Covered in Egg 2.

19. New Issue: Non-monotonic data
Jon and Arpad agreed that the data was a measurement artifact, but given 
that, it is OK.  Simulator vendors can back out the anomaly.  It is an 
artifact that comes from one measurement being derived from on versus 
tri-stated transistors.  When you subtract the curves, there is a small 
error that results.  After discussion, Jon and Arpad were not in 
agreement.

AR Jon: Publish a discussion of this issue.  DONE.

20. Wrap-up, Next Meeting Plans                
Next meeting is 4/29/94.  We will concentrate on approving/rejecting all 
pending BIRDs through BIRD 11.