Subject: IBIS MINUTES 8/25/95

From: [email-masked] ( Bob Ross)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 18:03 PDT

DATE:    August 29, 1995
 
 SUBJECT: 8/25/95 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes
 
 VOTING MEMBERS:
 AT&T Global Info Solutions     Dave Moxley*
 Cadence Design                 Sandeep Khanna, C. Kumar
 Contec CAE, Ltd.               Dileep Divekar*
 HyperLynx                      Kellee Crisafulli
 IBM                            Jay Diepenbrock
 INCASES                        Werner Rissiek, Olaf Rethmeier*
 Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Will Hobbs*, Arpad Muranyi*,
                                Derrick Duehren
 Interconnectix, Inc.           Bob Ross*
 Meta-Software                  Les Spruiell, Mei Wong, You-Pang Wei, 
                                John Sliney
 Motorola                       Ron Werner
 National Semiconductor         Syed Huq*, Atul Agarwal, Cheng-Yang Kao
 NEC                            Hiroshi Matsumoto, Eldar Yazbashevz*
 Quad Design                    Jon Powell
 Quantic Labs                   Mike Ventham
 Texas Instruments              Roger Cline, Ben Andresen
 Thomson-CSF/SCTF               Jean LeBrun
 UniCAD Canada Ltd.             Stephen Lum
 VLSI Technology                Dick Ulmer*, Sung Oh*
 Zuken-Redac                    John Berrie
 
 OTHER PARTICIPANTS:
 ARPA                           Randy Harr
 Anacad                         Steffen Rochel
 Ansoft                         Henri Maramis
 Atmel Corporation              Dan Terry
 Cadlab                         Ralf Bruning
 Digital Equipment Corp.        Barry Katz
 EIA                            Patti Rusher
 High Design Technology         Michael Smith, Dr. Ing. Cosso
 Hewlett Packard                Tom Langdorf, Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu
 Integrated Silicon Systems     Eric Bracken
 Intergraph                     Ian Dodd, David Wiens, Walter Katz
 IntuSoft                       Charles Hymowitz
 LSI Logic Corp.                Satish Pratadneni
 Mentor Graphics                Ravender Goyal, Greg Doyle
 Micron Technology              Brian Johnson                       
 MicroSim                       Arthur Wong
 North Carolina State U.        Steve Lipa, Michael Steer
 OptEM Engineering, Inc.        Benny Leveille, Ken Ehn
 Pacific Numerix                Paul K. U. Wang
 Symmetry                       Martin Walker
 Synopsys, Logic Modeling G.    Bill Lattin
 Univ. of Illinois, Urbana      Raj Mittra* 
 Zeelan Technology              George Opsahl, Hiro Moriyasu
 (Independent)                  Bob Ward

 In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.
 
 Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as 
 follows:
      Date       Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode 
      9/15/95    (916) 356-9200   1-16347          127231        
      10/6/95    (303)-633-2197   1-308636         No pass code

 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
 7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
 When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
 Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
 
 NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
 
 -------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------
 
 INTRODUCTIONS, ANNOUNCEMENTS
 Eldar Yazbashevz from NEC joined us as an interested user of IBIS models. 

 EIA MEMBERSHIP AND TREASURER'S REPORT
 No Treasurer's report was available.  There is some off-line discussion
 regarding whether additional money has been sent from Anacad and received
 by EIA for Anacad to become a voting member.

 MINUTES REPORT, MISC.
 Minutes of 8/11/95 corrections:  Dave Moxeley of ATT attended.  
 Intel "Chipsets" library has been updated.  The Passcode number was
 incorrect for the 8/25/95 meeting on the minutes, and we hope that
 did not cause any problems.  It was correct on the agenda.

 PRESS UPDATES
 None.

 NEW MODELS
 None.

 OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
 Possible discussions are Models under NDA, the Roadmap project and
 the ground plane analysis issue, all which have been discussed on the
 reflector.

 EIA IBIS RATIFICATION (VOTES)
 The letter ballot closed as of August 22, 1995.  There were no negative
 ballots.  A draft Version 2.1 revision was posted with the already
 approved changes per the August 11, 1995 meeting.  Most of the meeting
 was devoted to the Version 2.1 comments and revision.

 Will Hobbs of Intel supplied some grammatical and spelling corrections
 based on a technical writer review:
    Pg. 3, line 38:  Change "super sets" to "supersets.
    Pg. 5, line 28:  Change "can NOT" to "CANNOT".
    Pg. 23, line 17: Change "can not" to "cannot".
    On the revised draft, Remove the redundant "in" in the BIRD29.2
       inclusion.

 Dave Moxley provided these spelling corrections:
    Pg. 8, line 48:  Change "forth" to "fourth".
    Pg. 10, line 23: Change "forth" to "fourth".

 The proposed response to Intel's editorial comments that were sent on
 the reflector were approved by Membership vote.
 
 AR - Bob Ross send the response to Intel and copy EIA.

 Sung-Ki Min of Integrated Device Technology, Inc. submitted comments and
 the response to IDT, Inc. was discussed.  The main issue was how to
 describe the fact that IBIS does take into account the package parameters
 for ground and power pins without creating a cluttered figure.  After much
 discussion, this response was proposed:

"Recommendation for SP3527 (IBIS)
It is recommended that high frequency effects be modeled into IBIS.
- The Modeling of transmission line effect at the I/O.
- Lead inductances should be modeled in the power and the ground to
  model L*(di/dt) effect at the output (Figure in page 18).
Thank you."

IDT, Inc.:             Comment 1
Type of Comment:       Editorial
Reference:             None
Suggested Change:      
It is recommended that high frequency effects be modeled into IBIS.
- The Modeling of transmission line effect at the I/O.

Response:  No change will be made.
Reason:   
Transmission line effects in packages are being considered and actively
discussed for the next future extension of IBIS.  Buffer Issue Resolution
Document No. 28.2 (BIRD28.2) is the current proposal.  Your participation
in this work is welcomed.

IDT, Inc.:             Comment 2
Type of Comment:       Editorial
Reference:             Terminator model figure on page 18.
Suggested Change:      
It is recommended that high frequency effects be modeled into IBIS.
- Lead inductances should be modeled in the power and the ground to
  model L*(di/dt) effect at the output (Figure in page 18).

Response:  On the figure the "[Package] Keyword Sub-parameters" will
be changed to "[Package] Keyword Sub-parameters *" and a note at the
bottom will be added: "* Note: More advanced package parameters are
available within this standard, including more detailed power and
ground net descriptions.

Reason:
You have a valid concern regarding the reference model and its relationship
to ground and power inductances.  The IBIS format actually supports a variety
of package models of increasing detail.  To describe them in detail in
a figure would detract from the main point showing the terminator model
elements.  Often for terminator elements shown in the figure on page 18,
the ground and power package elements are not needed.  The terminator
values are already dominant for the frequency range of interest.  So the
picture remains valid.  However, a note is added to convey that the 
application and usage of IBIS models can be extended to a higher level
of detail based on simulator functionality and the analysis being
addressed.  In general the [Pin Mapping] keyword is available to describe
the power and ground L*(di/dt) effects for a particular set of buffer
or terminator models.  

 The above response was approved by Membership vote.

 AR - Will Hobbs send the response to Integrated Device Technology and
 copy EIA.

 Michael G. Wahl of the University of Siegen submitted some comments.
 The response to University of Siegen was discussed.  Will checked with
 Jeanne Warner of EIA and verified that we had all of the documents that
 EIA had received.

 The proposed response to the University of Siegen comments was:

"General Comment:
* An Information Model in Express would make the introduction of the 
  Standard to the STEP activitiy easier.
* I have missed an extended example.
* Short Remarks on pages: 6, 7, 12"

University of Siegen:  Comment 1
Type of Comment:       Editorial
Reference:             None
Suggested Change:      
* An Information Model in Express would make the introduction of the 
  Standard to the STEP activitiy easier.

Response:  No change will be made.
Reason:  We will consider your suggestion for future IBIS activity.

University of Siegen:  Comment 2
Type of Comment:       Editorial
Reference:             None
Suggested Change:      
* I have missed an extended example.

Response:  No change will be made.
Reason:  IBIS modles are publically available to serve as examples in the
/pub/ibis/models directory on vhdl.org.  An information package is attached.

University of Siegen:  Comment 3
Type of Comment:       Editorial
Reference:             Pages 6, 7, 12
Suggested Change:      
* Short Remarks on pages: 6, 7, 12

Response:  No change will be made.
Reason:  We did not receive the pages with remarks.  We cannot consider these
remarks at this time.

 The above response was approved by Membership vote.

 AR - Will Hobbs send the response to Integrated Device Technology and 
 cop EIA.

 AR - Will Hobbs submit copies of previous responses to EIA.
 
 AR - Bob Ross roll the changes into a revised Version 2.1 Specification.
 Send changes to the reflector by September 1, 1995.  Send changes to EIA.

 The Version 2.1 document was put to a vote with the grammar and spelling
 changes and with the letter ballot changes above.  It was approved by
 Membership vote.  Will Hobbs indicated that this is a major milestone.

 The next step is to submit these comments and results to EIA and work
 with them toward final ratification of EIA-656.  Also, EIA will generate
 a press release.

 AR - Will Hobbs communicate with EIA on the next step to final ratification
 of EIA-656 and a press release.

 WEB UPDATE
 Will Hobbs stated that he can submit IBIS information internally at
 Intel similar to what Syed Huq has done at National.  He recommends that
 people in other companies do the same.

 Syed Huq reported that the EIA home page is going through some changes
 and the IBIS and EIA-656 access has not been set up yet.  The search
 utility is currently disabled.  Syed has translated the IBIS material
 into html, so the documents are ready.  Syed will continue to work with EIA.

 FAQ VOTE
 Q6 and Q7 had been resubmitted to the reflector for consideration.  Based
 on responses questions were considered here.  

 Q6: Can IBIS model SSO (Simultaneous Switching Output) ?
 Sung Oh raised the issue that gate modulation feedback effects can change
 di/dt and qre not modeled.  Arpad Muranyi  argued that some of the
 modulation effects can be obtained by looking at all of the tables
 (min, typ, and max).  Will Hobbs indicated that several IBIS formatted
 models could be provided for SSO simulation for a sequence of 1 driver,
 2 drivers, etc.  Also, the [Pin Mapping] keyword gives some useful
 information.  Arpad indicated that decoupling on the die can be a
 significant factor.  The general consensus was that some level of SSO is
 supported, but it is dangerous to imply SSO is completely covered.

 AR - Syed Huq post a reworded answer for further reflector discussion.

 Q7: Why do we need to sweep -Vcc to 2Vcc ?
 There was discussion concerning the need and validity of the clamping
 currents at the end of the range.  The concensus was that extrapolated
 values were sufficiently accurate and that high currents do not occur
 in signal integrity applications in actual simulations.  So the answer
 was basically correct.  The last two paragraphs were combined.

 The committee voted to approve the response.

 MODELS UNDER NDA
 The comment on the reflector by Dileep Divekar on NDA models may be
 resolved by a FAQ of the form:  Are models freely available?  The
 response is that some models are available under NDA because the 
 part has not been released and also some models are generated for sale
 as part of a model generation business.  Will Hobbs will send Syed Huq
 the reflector discussion.

 AR - Will Hobbs send Syed Huq the reflector discussion regarding models
 under NDA.

 AR - Syed Huq formulate a question and answer for review and voting.

 GOLDEN PARSER UPDATE
 Version 8 has been distributed.  Arpad Muranyi has received Version 9
 correcting a Banded_matrix bug.  He is sending it to Will Hobbs for
 distribution.  This should be the final Beta version.

 BIRD30 - PIN PROGRAMMABLE BUFFER STRENGTHS
 There was no time for discussion, but Bob Ross indicated that maybe
 there was a more consistent syntax which will eliminate the floating
 "Default" and may allow some attributes.

 NEXT MEETING:
 It is set on Friday, September 15 1995.  

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                                       NOTES
 
 IBIS CHAIR: Will Hobbs (503) 264-4369, Fax (503) 264-4210
             [email-masked]
             Modeling Manager, Intel Corp.
             2111 NE 28th M/S JF1-57, Hillsboro, OR 97124 USA
 
 VICE CHAIR: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
             [email-masked]
             1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
 
 SECRETARY:  Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, fax (503) 639-3469
             [email-masked]
             10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223
 
 To become a voting member of the EIA IBIS Open Forum, send email to 
 [email-masked] for instructions.
 
 If you want to join the e-mail reflector ([email-masked]), send e-mail to the 
 IBIS secretary at [email-masked].
 
 Check the pub/ibis directory on vhdl.org for more information on previous 
 discussions and results.  You can get on via ftp anonymous, "guest" login from 
 telnet or dial-in (415-335-0110), or send an email request to the automatic 
 archive server, [email-masked].
 
 "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell ([email-masked]) for 
 use at trade shows.
 ==============================================================================