Subject: IBIS MINUTES 11/8/96

From: [email-masked] ( Bob Ross)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 15:53 PST

DATE: November 12, 1996

 SUBJECT: 11/08/96 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes
  
 VOTING MEMBERS AND 1996 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
 AMP                            Hank Herrmann*, Tim Minnick, Russ Moser,
				Ray Ziesse*, Jeff Walden*
 Applied Simulation Technology  Dileep Divekar*, Norio Matsui, Antonis Orphanou
    (formerly Contec)
 Cadence Design                 C. Kumar*
 Cypress                        Bruce Wenniger
 Hewlett Packard, EEsof         Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu
 HyperLynx                      Kellee Crisafulli
 INCASES                        Olaf Rethmeier, Ralf Bruening
 Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Will Hobbs, Arpad Muranyi*,
				John Keifer, Aaron Tang, Duane Quiet,
				[Donald Telian], Jim Kruchowski
 Interconnectix, Inc.           Bob Ross*, Chris Reid
 Meta-Software                  (Sanjay Gangal)
 Mitsubushi                     Tam Cao, Hoang Nguyen
 Motorola                       Ahmed Omer
 National Semiconductor         Syed Huq*, [Donald Snyder], Chune-Sin Yeh,
				[Bill Aronson]
 NCR (formerly ATT-GIS)         Dave Moxley*, Richard Mellitz
 NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto),
 Quad Design                    Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek*
 Quantic Laboratories           (Mike Ventham)
 Texas Instruments              Roger Cline, Ben Andresen, Sri Jandhyala,
				Tareq Shahwan, Dan Phipps
 Thomson-CSF/SCTF               (Jean LeBrun)
 UniCAD Canada Ltd.             Celso Faia*
 Veribest                       Ian Dodd*, David Wiens
 VLSI Technology                Dick Ulmer, Sung Oh, Swami Gangadharan,
				Daniel Kim, Tom Dockery, D.C. Sessions,
				Hrish Patel
 Zuken-Redac                    (John Berrie)
 
 OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1996:
 3M                             Fran Hart, George Hare
 Actel                          Steve Schlachter*
 Alcatel                        John Fitzpatrick
 Altera                         Vadim von Brzeski
 Apteq Design System            Dan FitzPatrick 
 Compaq                         Mark Leonard
 Digital Equipment Corp.        Jeff Chu
 EIA                            Patti Rusher
 IC Works                       Eric Chen
 Mentor Graphics                Kim Owen
 Micron Technology              Brian Johnson                       
 MicroSim                       Ralph Perez
 Molex                          Gus Panella
 North Carolina State U.        (Michael Steer)
 Oki Semiconductor              Tom Chao
 Philips Semiconductor          Mike Magdaluyo
 Rockwell Collins               Thomas Thurman
 S3, Inc.                       Sarathy Sribhashyam, Phap Duong    
 Seimans Nixdorf                Arnaud Lacariere
 Symmetry                       Andy Hughes
 Tektronix, Inc.                Brock Hannibal
 TRW & Free Model Foundation    Robert Harrison
 VTC, Inc.                      Bob Ward
 Zeelan Technology              George Opsahl

 In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.  Principle
 members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
 Participants who have joined another organization are in square brackets.

 Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as 
 follows:

      Date       Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode  
      12/06/96   (916) 356-9200   4-35933          6785885
      1/10/97    (916) 356-9200   4-35934          5448699

 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
 7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
 When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
 Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
 
 NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
 
 -------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

 INTRODUCTIONS
 Scott Schlachter of Actel has started developing IBIS files for customers and
 is getting IBIS information to ramp up on all aspects of IBIS.  His initial
 concern is correlating IBIS with measurements from silicon.

 EIA MEMBERSHIP AND TREASURER'S REPORT
 Bob Ross indicated that the ledger remains at $9,285 with some deductions
 pending.

 MINUTES REPORT, MISC.
 No changes, all AR's done with Ian Dodd still planning his s2ibis postings and
 C. Kumar providing more test load discussions.

 MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
 None.

 PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
 Bob Ross reported references to IBIS in "Analysis Tools Target PC-Board
 Design-Cycle Front End" in Electronic Design, October 24, 1996, pp. 40-50.

 Also, "Tackling the Models Problem" in "Printed Circuit Design, November
 1996, pp.14-17 and a VeriBest reference on pg. 36.

 NEW MODELS
 Arpad Muranyi plans to submit more Intel models. 

 Jon Powell sent out a reflector note that National has a revised gp612mea.ibs
 file and Syed Huq sent out a note about a new dp83840a.ibs file on the
 National "lan" Web page.

 Bob Ross reported that the IDT shows a list of IBIS models under

    http://www.idt.com/cross_pl/models/ibs.html

 OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
 Chris Rokusek on Cookbook
 Ian Dodd on s2ibis
 Bob Ross on reflector technical issues (covered throughout)

 DESIGN SUPERCON97 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING
 Bob Ross asked and received consensus that National Semiconductor be formally
 chosen as the host company at the Design SuperCon97 IBIS face-to-face meeting 
 on Monday, January 20, 1997 in Santa Clara, California.

 Later, Syed Huq reported that he will make the local arrangements and will
 send information on the IBIS reflector.  It will be an all day session,
 probably from 8 AM to 5 PM and either at a hotel or at National.  Syed will
 supply names of local hotels.  Syed indicated that there will be technical
 sessions including those on model development experiences.  Soft copies will
 be put on the vhdl.org directory, and Syed will take care of making copies
 of presentations to distribute to participants.  Bob asked that people who
 would like to give presentations contact Syed with the topic and time needed.
 Most presentations are expected to be in the 10 to 20 minute range to promote
 discussion.  Bob and Syed will organize the topics and create the meeting
 agenda.
 
 Stephen Peters asked if our goal is to approve Version 3.0 at that meeting.
 Bob responded that that would be a good target, but Version 3.0 might get
 delayed pending how the Electrical Interconnect Description proposal evolves.
 
 AR - Syed send out information on the January IBIS Summit meeting.

 DAC97 PLANNING
 Bob Ross reported that Patti Rusher has asked for a commitment on whether 
 EIA organizations including the IBIS Open Forum will participate in the
 booth at DAC97.  The minimum level of participation costs $2500 and allows us
 to show a poster.  EIA will have a full booth, as last year.  We could supply
 literature.  Bob recommended that we go ahead and commit to this since there
 is great benefit in being supportive of all standards.  Besides, the IBIS
 Open Forum has received tremendous help from being associated with EIA 
 including administrative help, assistance and credibility to promote IBIS 
 through the national and international standardization processes.

 Patti Rusher can arrange the IBIS meeting room once we set the date.

 Stephen Peters questioned how much traffic existed at DAC.  Bob did not know.
 We can still have the "We Like IBIS" and "IBIS Spoken Here" signs at booths.  
 Also we can still investigate having our own booth at some remote location at
 DAC.  We will seek official approval at the next meeting.

 IEC PROGRESS
 Patti Rusher has indicated to Bob Ross that she believes IBIS is progressing
 smoothly.

 S2IBIS PLANS
 Bob Ross reported that he had briefly reviewed a new Beta version of s2ibis2
 (Version 0.99).  Bob felt that it should be put on vhdl.org where others
 could check the improvements.  Reported problems have been addressed, and
 Spectre support has been added.  A number of crash problems from memory leaks
 have been resolved.  Format confusion associated with data that exceeds the
 numerical scale factor limits has been solved by converting the data to 
 scientific notation.  A make file for other platforms including Windows,
 DOS, AIX, etc has been added, although Alan Glaser is unable to test this.
 The version will be put on vhdl.org as soon as it is packaged.

 Scott Schlacter brought up his questions concerning the extrapolation
 algorithm.  Bob mentioned that there was a reason for the algorithm, and he
 will put a response on the IBIS reflector.  Other technical discussion
 occurred.  Scott suggested a subdirectory for s2ibis fixes.  After some
 discussion, Bob felt that we will do that only if there is need.  Currently,
 however, the [email-masked] reflector should be used to report and
 discuss bugs and get help.  Syed Huq, in addition to testing, said he would
 keep tabs of the bugs.  We will send information including any suggested 
 fixes back to NCSU so they can maintain control any source code extensions.

 Ian Dodd indicated that he is still exploring releasing the Veribest version
 of Spice to IBIS with some bug fixes and support for NT.  This could either
 be put on vhdl.org or on the Veribest Web site.  He still needs to send out
 a list of bugs/fixes he has done to s2ibis2.

 COOKBOOK for 2.1
 Chris Rokusek raised the point that we have resolved a number of issues 
 as Cookbook additions, but there is no IBIS Version 2.1 Cookbook.  One
 example might be recommended test loads for [Rising Waveform] and [Falling 
 Waveform] keywords.  While Version 2.1 supports any test load, the silicon
 vendor needs guidance of what works best for simulation.  Most likely,  
 resistive test loads at various voltages will give the best results.  The
 simulator vendors can supply to Chris what they consider the best test loads.
 Chris believes that test loads at ground and Vcc were best, with a third
 test load at the midpoint voltage for validation.

 Stephen Peters plans an internal Intel Cookbook and can supply a sanitized 
 version to the IBIS Committee by the end of the year.  Chris volunteered to 
 head the Cookbook effort and compile the results.  Bob Ross will put this on 
 the agenda for regular reports.  

 Chris should work with Kellee Crisafulli, Bob, Stephen and anyone else.

 BIRD38 - MAXIMUM VOLTAGE
 Bob Ross called for a vote on BIRD38, which the Specification Committee had 
 recommended be rejected since the contents were covered in BIRD39.

 BIRD38 was disapproved by unanimous vote.

 BIRD39 - SPECIFICATION ENHANCEMENT
 Bob Ross introduced BIRD39 that adds the optional [Model Spec] keyword for
 adding min and max thresholds, a set of hysteresis thresholds, static and
 dynamic overshoot and pulse immunity.  Dileep Divekar had raised an e-mail 
 question concerning the need for husteresis thresholds, and he was satisfied
 with the response.  Bob also expressed some personal concerns on whether
 vendors would actually test for pulse immunity.  However, there was value in
 providing a format for this information.  

 Dave Moxley questioned that the overshoot words may be similar to RAIL, but
 may have different meanings.  Bob stated that in RAIL, the overshoot has a
 different purpose, it is a design rule that may not necessary correlate with 
 any specification value.  For example, no overshoot beyond a rail could be
 specified to force a net to be terminated.

 BIRD39 was approved by unanimous vote.

 PACKAGE COMMITTEE REPORT
 Stephen Peters started the discussion by noting that BIRD36.c was a working
 proposal to get feedback.  It covered only single line models and boards.
 Coupled models are set aside until some single line issues are resolved,
 but coupled models are intended to be included.  The new name is electrical
 interconnect descripion (.eid).  It includes SIMM models and also for
 connectors, Min_edge_time and capacitances.  I includes the BIRD28.3 and
 extensions of Fork and EndFork and Pins, Nodes (and reference designators)
 and Paths.

 Dileep Divekar raised some questions on the reflector.  Hank Herrmann's
 intended reflector response bounced (possibly due to an AMP mailer change).  
 Hank covered Dileep's comments point-by-point.  A synopsis of items covered
 in Hank's response are:

 - The numerical limits are minimums for simulator design guidance.
 - Pin ordering may be needed to identify input and output pins and possible
   internal references - this needs to be examined.
 - The suggestion of including G needs to be considered, but there are 
   frequency dependencies and effects that might be beyond the scope of the
   analysis at this time.  Also, we have yet to consider coupled matricies.
 - The phrase "backslash" needs to be changed to "slash".  Also we need to
   review BIRD37.3 for this correction.  [Note - This has been corrected in
   BIRD37.3 and in wip Version 3.0 drafts.]
 - Hank agreed that if the Len is not "0" to indicate a discrete component,
   then both L and C entries are required to create a distributed model.
 - NC as a method to terminate Paths internally needs to be reexamined to see
   if it is necessary.
 - The ref.designator syntax change from, for example, 17.U3 to U3.17 seems
   reasonable based on standard practice.

 Other discussions covered the capacitive global ground assumption appropriate
 for single line models and whether traces could split on the board and join
 at a different location.

 Stephen again invited anyone to participate in the Package Committee meetings
 where these issues are considered in depth.  Stephen will publish the minutes
 on the [email-masked] relector for information.

 AR - Bob Ross send out Hank's response [Done].
 
 AR - Stephen Peters set up the Package Committee meeting again for Friday,
 8:30 AM to 10 AM.

 BIRD35.2 - MULTI-STAGED OUTPUTS
 Bob Ross introduced BIRD35.2 proposing a scheduling method for calling other
 models for multi-staged output.  A number of silicon vendors have devices
 which physically use phased switching.  There has been a lot of reflector
 discussion on this subject.  Bob feels that, as Greg Edlund had wrote, that
 it would be nice to show a simulation with and without multi-staged switching.
 Chris Rokusek was not aware of any possible objections to the proposed format.

 C. Kumar raised some valid concerns that there really may be a very strong
 dependency on which simulator is used.  We did not have time to go into much
 detail, and this discussion needs to continue on the reflector.  Stephen
 Peters suggested a "golden waveform" for the composite response and have it
 as part of the [Model] from which the [Driver Schedule] keyword is inserted.  
 
 BIRD35.2 is scheduled for a vote at the next meeting.

 PARSER ADDITIONS FOR NUMERICAL CHECKING
 Chris Rokusek stated that he has implemented all of the proposed changes.  He
 did not know what percentage to select for accuracy and Bob Ross indicated
 that 2 percent would be a good start.  Also, Bob would like the executables
 built with Static links for broader distribution.

 Ian Dodd volunteered to help test the code on NT and Windows95 in response
 to Chris' request for assistance.

 NEXT MEETING:
 The next meeting is on Friday, December 6, 1996, 8:00 A.M. to 9:55 A.M.
 BIRD35.2 is scheduled for a vote.
 ==============================================================================
				       NOTES
 
 IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, Fax (503) 639-3469
	     [email-masked]
	     Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix
	     10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223

 VICE CHAIR: Syed Huq (408) 721-4874, Fax: (408) 721-4785
	     [email-masked]
	     Staff Applications Engineer, National Semiconductor, M/S A-2595
	     2900 Semiconductor Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95052
 
 LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
	     [email-masked]
	     Transmission-Line Products Manager, Quad Design
	     1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
 
 SECRETARY:  Vacant

 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
 Manual of Organization and Procedure.
 
 The following e-mail addresses are used:

   [email-masked]
       To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
       ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
       or both.  State your request.

   [email-masked]
       To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
       for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
       Open Forum as a full Member.

   [email-masked]
       To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
       is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
       technical enhancements.

   [email-masked]
       To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
       used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
       general user concerns.

   [email-masked]
       To report ibischk2 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
       vhdl.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

 Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
 IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
 Electronic Information Group under:

   http://www.eia.org

 Check the pub/ibis directory on vhdl.org for more information on previous 
 discussions and results.  You can get on via ftp anonymous, "guest" login from 
 telnet or dial-in (415-335-0110), or send an e-mail request to the automatic 
 archive server, [email-masked].
 
 "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell ([email-masked]) for 
 use at trade shows.
 ==============================================================================