Subject: IBIS MINUTES 10/18/96

From: [email-masked] ( Bob Ross)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 12:05 PDT

DATE: October 23, 1996

 SUBJECT: 10/18/96 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes
  
 VOTING MEMBERS AND 1996 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
 AMP                            Hank Herrmann*, Tim Minnick, Russ Moser,
				Ray Ziesse*, Jeff Walden*
 Applied Simulation Technology  Dileep Divekar*, Norio Matsui, Antonis Orphanou
    (formerly Contec)
 Cadence Design                 C. Kumar*
 Cypress                        Bruce Wenniger
 Hewlett Packard, EEsof         Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu
 HyperLynx                      Kellee Crisafulli
 INCASES                        Olaf Rethmeier, Ralf Bruening
 Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Will Hobbs, Arpad Muranyi*,
				John Keifer, Aaron Tang, Duane Quiet,
				[Donald Telian], Jim Kruchowski
 Interconnectix, Inc.           Bob Ross*, Chris Reid
 Meta-Software                  (Sanjay Gangal)
 Mitsubushi                     Tam Cao, Hoang Nguyen
 Motorola                       Ahmed Omer
 National Semiconductor         Syed Huq*, [Donald Snyder], Chune-Sin Yeh,
				[Bill Aronson]
 NCR (formerly ATT-GIS)         Dave Moxley*, Richard Mellitz
 NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto),
 Quad Design                    Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek*
 Quantic Laboratories           (Mike Ventham)
 Texas Instruments              Roger Cline, Ben Andresen, Sri Jandhyala,
				Tareq Shahwan, Dan Phipps
 Thomson-CSF/SCTF               (Jean LeBrun)
 UniCAD Canada Ltd.             Celso Faia
 Veribest                       Ian Dodd*, David Wiens
 VLSI Technology                Dick Ulmer, Sung Oh, Swami Gangadharan,
				Daniel Kim, Tom Dockery, D.C. Sessions,
				Hrish Patel
 Zuken-Redac                    (John Berrie)
 
 OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1996:
 3M                             Fran Hart*, George Hare*
 Alcatel                        John Fitzpatrick
 Altera                         Vadim von Brzeski
 Apteq Design System            Dan FitzPatrick 
 Compaq                         Mark Leonard
 Digital Equipment Corp.        Jeff Chu*
 EIA                            Patti Rusher
 IC Works                       Eric Chen
 Mentor Graphics                Kim Owen
 Micron Technology              Brian Johnson                       
 MicroSim                       Ralph Perez
 Molex                          Gus Panella
 North Carolina State U.        (Michael Steer)
 Oki Semiconductor              Tom Chao
 Philips Semiconductor          Mike Magdaluyo
 Rockwell Collins               Thomas Thurman
 S3, Inc.                       Sarathy Sribhashyam, Phap Duong    
 Seimans Nixdorf                Arnaud Lacariere
 Symmetry                       Andy Hughes
 Tektronix, Inc.                Brock Hannibal
 TRW & Free Model Foundation    Robert Harrison
 VTC, Inc.                      Bob Ward
 Zeelan Technology              George Opsahl

 In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.  Principle
 members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
 Participants who have joined another organization are in square brackets.

 Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as 
 follows:

      Date       Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode  
      11/08/96   (916) 356-9200   2-104708         1692479

 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
 7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
 When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
 Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
 
 NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
 
 -------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

 INTRODUCTIONS
 Jeff Walden from AMP works with Ray Ziesse and is involved with connector
 modeling.

 George Hare from 3M is in the Electrical Products Division in Texas and
 has been working on modeling issues for the last six months.

 EIA MEMBERSHIP AND TREASURER'S REPORT
 Bob Ross reported that the EIA IBIS ledger remains at $9,285  for September,
 1996.  However some EIA shared expenses will be deducted by the end of the
 year.

 MINUTES REPORT, MISC.
 Fran Hart reported that she is with the Electronic Products Division of 3M,
 not the Electronics Products Group as previously stated.

 MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
 Bob Ross reported that each IBIS reflector mailing list contains over 290
 people from all over the world.  Each mailing typically generates a few
 bounced messages, typically because of people moving on and because of local
 computer network problems.  Bob usually tries to forward the mail in a few
 days or attempts to contact the site "postmaster".  However, if the problem
 is not resolved in a few days, the name is removed on the list.  So, if you
 find that you are not receiving messages, you may have been dropped.  One way 
 to find out is to check the e-mail archives (email.archive and monthly
 archives) to see if you have received the most recent messages.

 PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
 Syed Huq reported that within a few weeks he will add links to an HTML version
 of the EE Times Article and to the BIRDs and the Cookbook on vhdl.org.  He
 also plans some format changes on the official EIA/IBIS home page.

 Bob Ross also reported "PCB design tools continue Windows juggernaut", 
 Computer Design, September 1996, pp. 35-38 contain reference to VeriBest 
 usage of IBIS models.

 NEW MODELS
 Arpad Muranyi has several more Intel models available under NDA.  He will
 submit the updated list to Jon Powell.

 Bob Ross reported that the Free Model Foundation now has 29 contributed
 IBIS models under

    ftp://vhdl.org/vi/fmf/fmf_public_models/ibis
 
 Arpad also raised the issue that the response time on vhdl.org is very slow.
 Bob has experienced reasonably fast responses, so he feels that the problem
 may possibly be internal to Intel.  In any case both will try again to see if
 there is a response problem.  [Bob and Arpad both found the response normal.]

 OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
 Ray Ziesse on AMP patent position.
 C. Kumar on V/T waveform problems with IBIS Version 2.1.

 AMP PATENT POSITION
 Ray Ziesse responded to an earlier commitment that AMP provide its position
 to the Committee concerning Patent # 5,081,602 on Computer Simulator for
 Electrical Connectors.  (Refer to the September 6, 1996 IBIS Open Forum
 Minutes.)

 A licensing agreement is available on Patent # 5,081,602.  It can be obtained
 by contacting.

    Mr. Bruce Wolstoncroft
    The Whitaker Corporation
    Phone: (302) 633-2745

 DESIGN SUPERCON97
 Syed Huq reported that National Semiconductor has formally offered to host
 the IBIS Face-to-face meeting in Santa Clara on the Monday before Design
 SuperCon97 at the end of January.  National will provide the room, lunch and
 support equipment.  Syed felt that an EIA procedural rule prohibited a company
 such as National from hosting a formal EIA meeting on company premises.  [This
 is not true, and in fact is encourage, based on a response from Patti Rusher.]

 We expect to formally select the host company at the next Open Forum meeting.
 Anyone else wishes to be considered should notify Bob Ross.

 Bob expects the meeting agenda to include some practical experiences regarding
 generating IBIS models by silicon vendors and by customer's with internal ASIC
 development capability.  EDA vendors may be able to share more information on
 internal utilities.  Bob also expects more discussions on model validation.

 Arpad Muranyi followed up on a point made at the last meeting that the 
 Committee should consider holding some meetings on the East Coast for 
 geographical balance.  Bob indicated that the two traditional Face-to-face
 meetings are held at the Design SuperCon location (Santa Clara, California) 
 and at wherever the Design Automation Conference (DAC) is held.  The location
 in June 1997 is in Anaheim, CA).  Many active IBIS Committee members already 
 attend these conferences.  So the opportunity for meetings elsewhere depend on
 DAC locations.  Possibly some working group Face-to-face meetings can be held,
 if needed, on the East coast.

 DAC97 PLANNING (AND OTHER MEETINGS)
 Bob Ross indicated that EIA usually plans to have a Standards Booth covering
 the activities of all committees under EIA/EIG.  The IBIS Open Forum Committee
 shared expenses with other standards groups last year, and we will probably do
 so again this year.

 S2IBIS PLANS
 Based on recent reflector activity, there are several questions and problems
 with s2ibis2.  Bob Ross reported that the original s2ibis Version 2.091 was
 posted as a BETA version on vhdl.org around November, 1995.  Some significant
 concerns including crashes, functional errors, and functional omissions have
 been reported.  NCSU has used all their funding for the existing development
 and has not gotten new funding from DARPA to finish the job.  NCSU has also
 investigated commercial opportunities.  Bob offered several options to get
 the s2ibis2 code beyond the prototype level and to be functionally usable:

   1. NCSU "steal" some time to complete the job.
   2. Fund a new student for several months to complete the job.
   3. Some other company take over "ownership" and complete s2ibis2.
   4. Some individual be contracted to finish the job.

 Ian Dodd indicated that VeriBest has made its own corrections and is willing
 to communicate them publicly.  VeriBest may offer their s2ibis conversion
 utility to the public domain.  They will report some significant problems
 that they have discovered on the IBIS reflector.

 Syed Huq felt that NCSU should be encouraged to finish the job.  Bob felt
 that while there are several items that need to be fixed, the completion
 project was still of limited scope.  There is interest in an NT based
 utility.  However, Bob felt this would be beyond the scope of this project.
 
 AR - Bob Ross work with NCSU to correct some defects and complete s2ibis2.

 AR - Ian Dodd post the problems he discovered.  Optionally, Ian work with
 Bob Ross to post a working revised s2ibis2 conversion package if he obtains
 permission.

 Arpad Muranyi mentioned that his IBIS Center development utility is available
 to IBIS Committee members.  He is restricted by a licensing agreement to
 50 copies.  Arpad cannot provide support but would welcome comments and 
 feedback.  The utility is not general.  It focuses on CMOS technology and 
 does not, for example, support ECL technologies.  It does the following:

   1. Reads simulated data from template files
   2. Graphically displays the simulated data
   3. Creates an IBIS Model set of data
   4. Graphically displays the IBIS Model tables
   5. Construct an IBIS Component model from several Models

 The graphical interface supports zooming.  Templates are provided to set up
 the simulations to generate the initial simulated data, as a separate process.
 The utility is available for Sun Unix and DOS workstations.

 IBIS V/T PROBLEM WITH VERSION 2.1 IBIS MODELS
 C. Kumar raised the issue that some Version 2.1 level IBIS models contain
 V/T data that converge slowly to the final DC value.  One issue is what may
 be a reasonable truncation criteria so that one can properly focus on the 
 faster transition portion.  Several people suggested experience using one
 percent.  Kumar questioned whether this should be standardized.  Too much
 truncation creates a DC mismatch.

 Chris Rokusek stated that the percentage voltage versus time approach can
 produce stable results.  Too much truncation may hide other artifacts 
 related to noise and EMI.  Any criteria could be put in a cookbook for
 guidance.

 How C_comp interacts is a related issue.  An actual fixed C_comp used in
 the IBIS model differs from any non-linear capacitance in the device or
 Spice model.  These capacitances cannot be removed.  Therefore, it is
 realistic that a simulation could differ from a "golden response".  The
 point about the golden response is that it is a response based on a
 prescribed condition.  Simulators probably have different algorithms to
 describe transitions, so one test of accuracy is how close the response
 is to the "golden response".

 AR - Kumar write up the specific issues and concerns on the IBIS reflector. 

 BIRD37.2
 Stephen Peters presented BIRD37.2 as a modification to BIRD28.3 which
 extended the package model by allowing cascaded sections and cascaded
 matrix sections.  The matrix addition is removed.  A simple Fork and
 End Fork branching capability is added.

 Per a Package Committee request, Bob Ross gave background of the existing
 package issues under discussion.  Package models extensions consist of
 BIRD28.3 and BIRD37.2.  At the other extreme electrical boards can be
 described by proprietary physical data bases and is being standardized by 
 EDIF 4 0 0.  The IBIS committee has been interested in board electrical 
 descriptions for such components as SIMMs and MCMs.  These descriptions would 
 not be for large boards.  They would allow models where the physical data is
 is not available (and for boards being designed).  Transmission line models 
 are appropriate.  Several formats have been proposed: nodal descriptions 
 (Spice-like), transmission line connection syntax (Z0, TD, Length, Forks), 
 and field extractor like (L, C, length) formats.  In practice, single line 
 structures are quite adequate for electrical boards for timing and signal
 integrity analysis.

 Connector models are another requirement.  Single line models can be used.
 However there is strong interest in multi-line (coupled) models to support
 multiboard applications.  The typical analysis may cover cross-talk, ground
 bounce and differential nets.  BIRD36 covers both the single line electrical
 board descriptions and also multi-line connector models.

 BIRD31.3 is a connector only proposal that is an extension of BIRD28.3 to
 cover two-terminal devices.  It is currently on hold pending the resolution
 of BIRD36.  BIRD32 is a coupling proposal extension that deals with subcircuit
 matrices as a more economical way of formatting matrix coupling.  This is also
 on hold.

 Thus the proposals currently under consideration are BIRD37.2 for packages and
 BIRD36 for electrical board descriptions including connectors.

 Several minor editorial corrections were suggested for BIRD37.2.

 BIRD37.2 was approved unanimously.

 AR - Stephen Peters issue approved BIRD37.3 with the corrections.  [Done]

 PACKAGE COMMITTEE REPORT
 Stephen Peters reported on Package Committee discussions.  One consensus is
 that the electrical description is positioned to support smaller boards is
 not intended to be as comprehensive as a full physical description.  So
 uncoupled networks are adequate.  The EDIF 4 0 0 format covers the full
 physical description including coupling and contains references to IBIS
 models.
 
 Connectors are typically a repetitive structure that can be described by
 simple, single line, pin-to-pin formats and also by coupling matrix formats.
 EDA vendors need coupling.  So the question is how to describe the coupling.

 Hank Herrmann has made some changes to BIRD36 based on some previous meeting
 comments and suggestions.  He will forward the revised BIRD36 to Stephen
 to distribute to the Package Committee.  Hank noted that single line 
 connector models could be provided immediately once the format is defined.
 Package Committee meetings will continue on Fridays, 8:30 A.M. to 10 A.M.

 AR - Stephen Peters set up the Package Committee meeting.

 SPECIFICATION COMMITTEE REPORT  
 Bob Ross reported that Ahmed Omer, John Fitzpatrick, Jon Powell and Bob
 held several conference call meetings resulting in BIRD39.  Its key
 aspects are:

 - A new optional specification keyword [Model Spec] under [Model]
 - [Model Spec] subparameters with typ, min and max columns
 - Vinl and Vinh thresholds extended to min and max
 - Hysteresis thresholds
 - Overshoot and dynamic overshoot parameters
 - Pulse immunity parameters

 Arpad Muranyi questioned whether an area or energy definition could be used
 for dynamic overshoot.  Bob responded that the committee had considered such
 an approach.  The problem was in obtaining a value.  Also the committee
 found that the source data information came in all types of formats.  For
 example a PCI bus overshoot specification is derivable from a current limit
 value and clamping diode details.  Some of the information may be in general
 sections showing typical characteristics rather than associated with a
 specific part.  So the Committee opted for a simpler method where a voltage
 can exceed the overshoot value for a specified period of time as long as it
 remains below the dynamic overshoot limit value.  The pulse immunity values
 also provide a do-not-exceed value for a specified period of time beyond some
 existing thresholds.

 A vote will be scheduled at the next meeting.  Also a vote to reject BIRD38
 will be scheduled since BIRD39 supersedes BIRD38.

 BIRD35.2 - MULTI-STAGED OUTPUTS
 Bob Ross recently introduced BIRD35.2 proposing a revised scheduling method 
 He believes it is compatible to existing implementations, but plans to check
 with Jon Powell.

 EGG10 - PARSER ADDITIONS FOR NUMERICAL CHECKING
 Chris Rokusek indicated he could implement the proposed changes in one module
 so that the revised code could provide a new basis for further development.
 The unchanged ibischk2 would still be available.  Chris and Bob Ross need to 
 decide on some functionality details mentioned at the last meeting.

 AR - Chris Rokusek and Bob Ross decide on some functionality details and
 Chris produce the revised ibischk2.

 NEXT MEETING:
 The next meeting is on Friday, November 8, 1996, 8:00 A.M. to 9:55 A.M.
 BIRD39 and BIRD38 are scheduled for a vote.
 ==============================================================================
				       NOTES
 
 IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, Fax (503) 639-3469
	     [email-masked]
	     Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix, Inc.
	     10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223

 VICE CHAIR: Syed Huq (408) 721-4874, Fax: (408) 721-4785
	     [email-masked]
	     Staff Applications Engineer, National Semiconductor, M/S A-2595
	     2900 Semiconductor Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95052
 
 LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
	     [email-masked]
	     Transmission-Line Products Manager, Quad Design
	     1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
 
 SECRETARY:  Vacant

 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
 Manual of Organization and Procedure.
 
 The following e-mail addresses are used:

   [email-masked]
       To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
       ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
       or both.  State your request.

   [email-masked]
       To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
       for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
       Open Forum as a full Member.

   [email-masked]
       To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
       is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
       technical enhancements.

   [email-masked]
       To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
       used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
       general user concerns.

   [email-masked]
       To report ibischk2 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
       vhdl.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

 Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
 IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
 Electronic Information Group under:

   http://www.eia.org

 Check the pub/ibis directory on vhdl.org for more information on previous 
 discussions and results.  You can get on via ftp anonymous, "guest" login from 
 telnet or dial-in (415-335-0110), or send an e-mail request to the automatic 
 archive server, [email-masked].
 
 "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell ([email-masked]) for 
 use at trade shows.
 ==============================================================================