Subject: IBIS Open Forum Teleconference Minutes 9/5

From: Stephen Peters <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:21:15 -0700

DATE: September 9, 1997

 SUBJECT: 9/5/97 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes
  
 VOTING MEMBERS AND 1997 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
 AMP                            Jeff Walden
 Applied Simulation Technology  [Dileep Divekar], Norio Matsui, Raj Raghuram*,
                                Fred Balistreri
 Cadence Design & UniCAD        C. Kumar, Don Telian, Cameron Seitz
 Cypress                        Bruce Wenniger
 Digital Equipment Corp.        Jeff Chu
 High Design Technology         (Razvan Ene)
 HyperLynx                      Kellee Crisafulli, Steve Kaufer, Matthew Flora*
 INCASES                        Olaf Rethmeier*, Werner Rissiek
 Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi, Henry Maramis,
				Will Hobbs, Frank Kern*
 Interconnectix                 Bob Ross*
 Mitsubushi                     Tam Cao, Hoang Nguyen
 Motorola                       [Ahmed Omer], Michael Desiderio, Paul Bolden,
                                Tom Myers, Rob Wenzel
 National Semiconductor         Syed Huq*, Cheng-Yang Kao, Mike Bristol,
				Peter Laflamme, Kevin Smith
 NCR                            Dave Moxley*, Richard Mellitz
 NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
 Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
 Texas Instruments              Thomas Fisher
 Thomson-CSF/SCTF               (Jean LeBrun)
 Viewlogic                      Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek*, Peivand Tehrani
                                Graham Bell*
 VeriBest                       Ian Dodd*, William Bell, Dave Wien*
 VLSI Technology                Harish Patel, D.C. Sessions*
 
 OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1997:
 3M                             [Fran Hart]
 Actel                          Scott Schlachter
 Acuson & Free Model Foundation Richard Munden
 Alcatel                        John Fitzpatrick
 Ansoft                         Eric Bogatin
 Apteq Design Systems           Dan FitzPatrick 
 Compaq                         Weston Beal, Mark Leonard
 Dell Computer                  Dave Baranauskas, Doug Wallace
 EIA                            Patti Rusher*
 EMC                            Fabrizio Zanella
 Hewlett Packard, EEsof         Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu
 Hewlett Packard, France        Jean-Christophe Pautrat
 Hitachi                        Saburo Hojo, Yasushi Ogawa 
 IBM                            Brad Herrman
 Interface Technology           Dan Waterloo 
 Micron Technology              Brian Johnson                      
 Molex                          Gus Panella
 North Carolina State U.        (Michael Steer)
 S3, Inc.                       Porsh Shih, Sarathy Sribhashyam
 Symmetry                       Andy Hughes
 TRW                            Ray Steele
 Ultratest International        Charles Im
 Zeelan Technology              George Opsahl 

 In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.  Principal
 members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
 Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

 Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
 follows:
     
   Date               Bridge Number     Reservation #    Passcode
   September 9       (916) 356-9200     1-178721        5387488

 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
 When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
 Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
 
 NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

 -------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

 INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
 The following new participants introduced themselves:

 Raj Raghuram is taking over the Applied Simulation Technology representation.
 While most of his involvement has been at his current company, he has also
 been involved with Syed Huq at National Semiconductor doing IBIS model
 development.

 Graham Bell from Viewlogic, Fremont, CA is interested in the modeling problem
 for marketing support for some of Viewlogic's signal integrity products.

 Dave Wien of Veribest is involved in marketing their signal integrity 
 products and related IBIS issues.

 MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
 Patti Rusher did not have a current membership or treasurer's report.  (The
 last report was $5,272.)  Bob Ross and Patti had carried out an off line
 discussion concerning budget and membership status, but the questions still
 need to be resolved.

 REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
 Matthew Flora's written name was corrected from Matt Flora, although he goes
 by both Matt or Matthew in conversation.  Patti Rusher's name was corrected
 from Pattie in a few locations.

 Stephen Peters reviewed the AR's.  D.C Sessions has completed his AR 
 (explaining the best way to modify a SPICE transistor model to get realistic 
 power and ground clamp curves) and Bob Ross has supplied both his text 
 examples for the cookbook.  The major outstanding A/Rs are examples for the 
 Cookbook and BIRDs and will be carried forward.

 MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
 Bob Ross announced that he will use one of the accepted aliases "eda.org"
 in place of "vhdl.org" as the site location for IBIS documents and mailing
 addresses.  This nomenclature is more representative of the EIA/IBIS Open
 Forum since IBIS has no technical association with VHDL.

 D.C. Sessions noted that VLSI Logic annual technical center training will
 include a session on IBIS taught by D.C.

 PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
 Syed Huq has made some roster updates.  Also, a member company plans to submit
 a logo for the poster page after going through the authorization steps.

 Bob Ross reported that Syed's Open tutorial on "Understanding and Using
 IBIS Models for Signal Integrity Analysis" is listed in the High-level 
 Electronic System Design Conference (HESDC '97) insert that has appeared
 in several magazines.  It is scheduled October 7-9, 1997 in San Jose, CA.

 Bob also noted that the "HyperLynx Upgrades HyperSuite" in EE Times, p. 63,
 August 25, 1997 mentions IBIS.

 Bob noted that the final column in Howard Johnson's Straight Talk for Serious
 Digital Designers titled "The Real Truth About Crosstalk" in Electronic
 Design, August 18, 1997, pg. 115, mentions IBIS at the end.

 Finally, Bob noted that two references to IBIS exist in the September, 1997
 issue of Printed Circuit Design.  The IBIS Version 3.0 press release is
 given on page 9, and Shelly Nielsen's writeup on the PCB Design Conference
 East, in Boston, September 15-19, 1997, references Bob's course on "Practical
 Issues with IBIS Models".

 NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
 D.C. Sessions states that VLSI Technology has pulled their IBIS models from
 their web page.  He had written on the reflector that they represented
 obsolete products and that they are discussing how to deal with future IBIS
 models (whether by Web site or by CD ROM).  He also indicated later that
 some new features of IBIS Version 3.0 would have been useful even for these
 models.  He will make available IBIS model with new features for testing.

 Bob Ross noted that IBM Microelectronics is offering downloadable IBIS models
 to registered users at:

   http://www.cips.ibm.com/products/memory/selguide/modelmenu.html

 Jon Powell has updated the EIA/IBIS Web page models section with the above
 changes.

 Syed reported that National has placed two new SuperI/O IBIS models on their
 Web page.

 OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
 Matthew Flora on reporting ibischk2+ problems
 Dave Wien on s2ibis for NT status

 INTERNATIONAL PROGRESS
 - 93/46/NP (IBIS Version 2.1) - Patti Rusher reported that the US Technical
   Advisorary Group (TAG) is tracing the documentation associated with this
   effort.  Patti expects more details after the Tokyo IEC meeting in
   September, 1997 concerning the status and response to 93/46/NP.

 - 93/60/NP (IBIS Models and EMC Simulation) - Patti reported that the US TAG
   has conditionally voted yes, pending a better definition of the scope of
   this effort.  She should have more information after the Tokyo IEC meeting.

 - EIAJ III (I/O Interface Model for ICs) - Patti reports that this proposal
   has been forwarded to the WG3.  The EIAJ subcommittee has been invited to
   give at presentation at an industrial forum at the IEC meeting.

 EAST COAST IBIS USERS GROUP
 Bob Ross reported that Dr. Ed Sayre of North East Systems Associates (NESA)
 has set up an East Coast IBIS Users meeting in Stow, Massachusetts on
 Thursday, September 18, 1997 from 2 p.m. onward.  Ed expects about 25 people
 at the initial meeting.  Information has been posted on the ibis-users 
 reflector.  More details are expected to be posted soon.  The agenda of this
 first meeting will also cover organizational details.  In addition, Ed expects
 to have several presentations.  Bob also noted that he is having some very
 preliminary discussion separately on a possible IBIS meeting associated with
 EuroDAC in France in February, 1998.

 S2IBIS FOR NT
 Dave Wiens plans to post the improved s2ibis_ver1.3 for NT on the VeriBest
 Web site where links already exist from the EIA/IBIS Web page and other sites.
 Work still exists to create the latest s2ibis2_ver2.1 files.  Bob Ross
 did not want the earlier version posted since there have been several 
 significant changes, even though, according to Ian Dodd, the number of file
 differences are small.  So partial compliance with the AR is expected soon.

 AR - Ian Dodd put s2ibis_ver1.3 and s2ibis_ver2.1 for Windows on the VeriBest
 Web site.

 EDITING COMMITTEE 
 Stephen Peters reported that he and Bob Ross met to go over some issues.  They
 developed an outline for sectioning the document.  The outline included an
 introduction section which will give more scope and detail.  Also after review
 Stephen and Bob agreed to some of the terms proposed by Ogawa-san of the
 EIAJ subcommittee.  Some additional detail to clarify "required" keywords
 was discussed since they provide only a minimal set.  Some non-required
 keywords are really technically required if they are applicable.  Perhaps a
 table will be added for this as in the Cookbook.
 
 Bob and Stephan still plan a first pass to be put in the work in progress
 directory (wip).

 The existing ARs are still in effect.

 AR - Bob Ross generate and post a BNF for IBIS Version 3.0 (and IBIS Version
 3.0 ratification AR).

 AR - Stephen Peters and Bob Ross generate an editorial revision of Version 3.0
 and place it in the eda.org/pub/ibis/wip directory.

 BIRD44 - INTERPRETATION OF MIN/MAX/WEAK/STRONG DATA
 Per the discussion of last meeting, Bob Ross has moved BIRD44 discussion into
 the Editing Committee Area since BIRD44 relates to an editorial issue.  It
 proposes changing the min and max column headings to weak and strong, where
 applicable under the [Model] keyword.  BIRD44 will be considered more closely
 at a later time as part of the the Version 3.0 editorial activity.

 VERSION 2.1 PARSER (& S2IBIS) BUG REPORTING
 Matthew Flora opened the discussion on this new item.  He has discovered some
 bugs with the existing ibischk2+ code and wanted to know how to report them.
 One bug was that a [Pullup] or [Pulldown] table with no data was not flagged,
 and another involved a crash after a keyword was positioned after the [End]
 statement.

 Matthew is aware of the /pub/ibis/bugs directory under eda.org where ibischk
 bug information and a report form is stored and is also aware of the email 
 address [email-masked].  His major concern is that the process is not
 documented on from the EIA/IBIS Web site or as a Frequently Asked Question
 (FAQ).  D.C. Sessions suggested an FTP site where bug test could be sent.
 They could be used for subsequent testing.  After some discussion, Matthew
 will work with Syed Huq concerning providing process information.

 AR - Matthew Flora work with Syed Huq regarding generating an FAQ and also
 an informative link from the EIA/IBIS Open Forum Web page on how to report
 bugs on ibischk parsers.

 Chris Rokusek asked whether a help switch could be added to the ibischk2+
 parser that would generate a bug report form.  The consensus was that this
 would be a good idea.  Chris also noted that the nomenclature should have
 been version 2.114 rather than 2.14.  Bob Ross stated that if changes are
 made, the parser should be nomenclated as 2.115.  Bob also noted that anyone
 who has purchased the source code license for ibischk2 can get the source
 code for these newer versions.

 Syed confirmed that ibischk2+ provides its version number, in response to
 a question by Matthew.

 The question arose where to report s2ibis bugs.  They are to be handled by
 the EIA/IBIS Open Forum, rather than by NCSU.  After some discussion Bob
 agreed to create a bug form and set up another directory for s2ibis bugs.

 AR - Bob Ross set up a bug directory for s2ibis bugs, and create a bug form.
 Bob will also work out a bug reporting process.

 VERSION 3.1 PARSER
 Bob Ross reported that one bid has come in and we are waiting for others.
 Bob also noted that in the past the source code licenses cost $500 each for
 ibis_chk and ibischk2.  This covered the contracted development cost with
 some margin since several purchases were made after the code had been
 developed.  Over 20 companies have paid for licenses for ibischk2.  The
 benefit for many companies is simply to help the development expense for
 the common benefit of all and also to get an early view as the code is
 being developed.  In some cases, they can perform early checks for IBIS models
 under development with the newer features before the official parser is
 considered complete and is released.

 The bids are expected to be higher than in the past.  In anticipation of this
 Bob wanted to get a sense of how much companies are willing to pay to share
 the cost of ibischk3.  Bob was probing the $2000 to $5000 range for each 
 company (with the expectation that fewer companies would join in to license
 the source code.)  If you are interested in licensing the source code, please
 respond privately to Bob Ross regarding about how much you would be willing
 pay to share the ibischk3 development expense. (Bob will also phone around to
 get a sense of commitment level.)  Based on some preliminary discussion,
 the $2,000 to @2,500 range seemed tolerable.  Bob indicated that a payment
 commitment that covers the total cost will be needed before we can accept
 any bid.

 Bob also raised the idea that individual companies such as Interconnectix
 may consider using internal staff to develop such a parser.  Other companies
 that might consider this include Hyperlynx, Viewlogic, VeriBest and Cadence,
 since they already have IBIS experience and need such a parser.  Consistent
 with the existing licensing policy, some fee would be set for licensing the
 source code.  With this arrangement, the company could get at least partial
 compensation for the internal effort.  Bob's main question was if anyone
 objected to pursuing this option.  No objections were raised.

 Chris Rokusek commented that if a company did the development, they would
 have to maintain the code indefinitely.  Bob commented that after the
 parser is released and accepted the company could expect to be compensated
 for additional work, especially if it involved a lot of effort.  We have 
 paid for additional work for ibischk2 fixes (and enhancements) in the past.

 Ian Dodd commented that some of the Version 3.0 enhancements are very easy
 to add.  Others, such as series switches, are difficult to understand
 and therefore may be costly to include.  Bob stated that this is one of the
 major benefits of developing the ibischk3 parser - discover and resolve the
 ambiguous areas of IBIS Version 3.0.  This has worked well in the past
 leading to IBIS Version 1.1 and IBIS Version 2.1 documents.

 Bob asked Chris to join him, Jon Powell, Syed Huq and Stephen Peters on the
 ibischk3 proposal review committee.

 LEGAL IBIS VERSION 3.0 FILES
 Bob Ross reported that some "legal" concerns were raised at the last meeting
 regarding issuing IBIS Version 3.0 that have not been validated using the
 non-existent ibischk3 parser.  Jon Powell initiated some further discussion
 on the ibis reflector, without resolution.  Stephen Peters felt that the
 IBIS model should be corrupted in some manner (issued as a .txt file or
 have the [IBIS Ver] designation "preliminary" so that the earlier releases
 would be guaranteed to fail ibischk3) until formally checked.  Bob felt that
 some method was needed, but that the existing comments and disclaimer methods
 and [File Rev] control were sufficient without introducing corruption.  There
 is now a "chicken and egg" situation where companies are now including IBIS
 Version 3.0 features that require uncorrupted IBIS Version 3.0 models.  The
 user could introduce error while undoing the corruption.

 Bob also stated that "legal" was not a good term since it implies
 compliance to a (copyright) law, whereas he understood the intended meaning
 to be "in (legal) compliance with the documented IBIS Version 3.0 syntax.  

 Stephen suggested that the committee take a position on this, and Bob
 suggested a general statement that we can all agree to - while each company
 will decide their own IBIS model release policy with IBIS Version 3.0
 features, we strongly suggest that the models be clearly documented at the
 top with the statement that it is released without having been checked with
 the (to be developed) ibischk3 syntax checker and is therefore subject to
 error.  A subsequent release of the model when the ibischk3 checker is 
 available may contain syntactical corrections.

 COOKBOOK
 Stephen Peters reported that D.C. Sessions and Bob Ross have provided him
 write ups and an example per ARs.  D.C. provided the writeup on getting
 realistic clamping information, and Bob provided a section on diode transit
 time and a series switch example.  Other AR's remain in effect.

 Stephen will make some additions and work with Bob to put the cookbook into
 the work in progress directory (/pub/ibis/wip) in eda.org.  The document
 Version Number will be used to document new version.  After some discussion
 and reviewing what we agreed to at the last meeting, Syed Huq will provide
 a link from the official EIA/IBIS Web page to this document.  He will include
 the appropriate warnings that the Cookbook is just a preliminary version that
 will undergo revision.  The Version Number of any Cookbook document needs
 to be checked with the posted document to assure that the latest Cookbook
 Document is being used.

 AR - The following people have volunteered to supply examples
  Steve Kaufer/Hyperlynx -- Example 1 (Version 1.1 basic model)
  Arpad Muranyi - Example 2
  Stephen Peters - Example 3 

 AR - Syed Huq.  Review and expand (if necessary) Section 3.3. on "Obtaining
 I/V and Switching Information via Lab Measurement".

 AR - Stephen Peters with Bob Ross put a copy of the Cookbook in the
 eda.org/pub/ibis/wip directory after appropriate Version Number and 
 preliminary disclaimers are added.

 AR - Syed Huq provide a link to access the Cookbook document from the official
 EIA/IBIS Web Site after the Cookbook is uploaded.

 BIRD42.3 - MODELING CURRENT WAVEFORMS
 D.C. Sessions has not gotten together with C. Kumar regarding some technical
 discussion on where rising and falling waveform table do not produce the 
 correct response.  Instead, D.C. plans to put the discussion on the IBIS
 reflector.  So the AR now reflects this change.

 AR - D.C. Sessions provide an example on the IBIS reflector showing
 where the rising and falling waveform tables do not result in correct
 results [Done].

 SWITCHING TERMINATORS
 No Report.

 MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSION
 Frank Kern asked if CAE Vendors are adding Version 3.0 features.  Bob Ross
 and Dave Wien responded that Interconnectix and VeriBest will have some
 IBIS Version 3.0 features in their next releases.

 Bob then asked what the semiconductor vendors view as the most important
 IBIS Version 3.0 features for inclusion by CAE Vendors.  A similar discussion
 occurred during the Version 2.1 development and helped CAE Vendors prioritize
 their development activities.  This discussion will be added to next
 meetings agenda.

 D.C. Sessions indicated that VLSI really requires the buffer selection
 addition [Model Selector].  Even older IBIS models needed this. Frank Kern
 suggested that this be a discussion topic at the next meeting since he needs
 to research this question.  Syed Huq wanted all of the features since he felt
 that excluding any feature gave permission for CAE Vendors never to implement
 it.  From a user's perspective, Dave Moxley did not have any specific need
 beyond Version 2.1.  However, he could use series switches if its 
 implementation is realistic and not too cumbersome.

 NEXT MEETING:
 The next meeting is on Friday, September 26, 1997, 8:00 A.M. to 9:55 A.M.
 ==============================================================================
				       NOTES
 
 IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, Fax (503) 639-3469
	     [email-masked]
	     Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix
	     10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223

 VICE CHAIR: Syed Huq (408) 721-4874, Fax: (408) 721-4785
	     [email-masked]
	     Staff Applications Engineer, National Semiconductor, M/S A-2595
	     2900 Semiconductor Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95052
 
 SECRETARY:  Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
	     [email-masked]
	     Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
             M/S JF1-56
	     2111 NE 25th Ave. 
             Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961

 LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
	     [email-masked]
	     Senior Scientist, Viewlogic (formerly Quad Design)
	     1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
  
 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
 Manual of Organization and Procedure.
 
 The following e-mail addresses are used:

   [email-masked]
       To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
       ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
       or both.  State your request.

   [email-masked]
       To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
       for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
       Open Forum as a full Member.

   [email-masked]
       To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
       is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
       technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

   [email-masked]
       To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
       used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
       general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

   [email-masked]
       To report ibischk2 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
       eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

 Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
 IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
 Electronic Information Group under:

   http://www.eia.org

 Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
 discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
 
 "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell ([email-masked]) for 
 use at trade shows.
 ==============================================================================