Subject: IBIS Open Forum Minutes 20 Nov 1998

From: Matthew Flora <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:29:15 -0100

DATE: 11/24/98

SUBJECT: 11/20/98 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes
   
VOTING MEMBERS AND 1998 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
AMP                            (Martin Freedman) 
Applied Simulation Technology  Norio Matsui, Raj Raghuram
Cadence Design (& UniCAD)      C. Kumar, Don Telian, Patrick Riffault, 
                               Craig Lewis, Greg Fitzgerald, Paul Galloway,
                               Patrick Dos Santos, Catherine Weiss, 
                               Alain Tribaudot, Geoffrey Ellis,
                               Todd Westerhoff, Ken Willis, Mike LaBonte
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq*, Sergio Camerlo, Irfan Elahi
Compaq                         Shariq Rahma, Jeff Chu, Bob Haller, 
  (Digital Equipment Corp.)    Doug Burns, Steve Coe
Cypress                        Bruce Wenniger
H.A.S. Electronics             Haruny Said
Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.)  Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu, Paul Gregory,
                               Brenda Arena
High Design Technology         Razvan Ene
HyperLynx                      Kellee Crisafulli, Matthew Flora*, Gene Garat,
                               Dave Kohlmeier
Incases                        Olaf Rethmeier, Scott Jacobson,
                               Werner Rissiek
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern,
  (& formerly NCR)             Will Hobbs, Prakash Radhakrishnan,
                               Mohammed Hawana, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley,
                               Tim Schreyer, Lyndell Asbenson
LSI Logic (Symbios Logic)      Larry Barnes
Mentor Graphics (Zeelan,       Bob Ross*, George Opsahl, Mark Noneman,
  Interconnectix, etc.)        Tom Dagostino, Karine Loudet, Jean Oudinot,
                               Manuel De Almeida, Stephane Rousseau, 
                               Neven Orhanovic, Mohamed Mahmoud, Kevin Cohan
Mitsubishi                     Tam Cao
Motorola                       (Ron Werner)
National Semiconductor         Cheng-Yang Kao, John Goldie, Ikchang Song,
                               Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Kathy Breda, Michael Baxter,
  (NESA)                       Jon Green, Jinhua Chen
NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Texas Instruments              Thomas Fisher, Harvey Stiegler,
                               Vincent Chang, Jean-Claude Perrin,
                               Peter Forstner
Thomson-CSF                    Jean-Marc Claveau, Laurent Duzaic,
                               Saverio Lerose, Benoit Meyniel,
                               Jean Lefebvre  
Viewlogic                      Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh, 
                               Gary Mandel
VeriBest                       Ian Dodd*, David Weins, Ian Gabbitas
VLSI Technology                D.C. Sessions*
Zuken-Redac                    (John Berrie) 

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1998:
3Com                           Steve Miller
3Dfx Interactive               Ken Wu
A.T.Sinker                     Tony Sinker
Actel                          Eric Tardif, Emmonvelle Gaudin 
Aerospatiale                   Lionel Dreux, Claude Huet
Alcatel (Bell, Espace, etc.)   John Fitzpatrick, W. Temmerman, 
                               Laure Bessettes, Jean-Claude Pourtau,
                               Daniel Peron
ALS Design                     Yves Mouquet
Ansoft                         Eric Bogatin
Apple                          Fred Floresca, Danny Itani
Apteq Design Systems           Dan FitzPatrick 
Atmel                          Ali Baktashian
Avanti                         Nik Bannov
CERN                           Olivier Clere, Jean-Michel Sainson, 
                               Rudi Zurbroken
Corning                        John Nieznanski
Crucial Technology             Rathna Reddy
DIVA Corp                      Tieng Nguyen
Dynamic Research Corporation   Mike Walsh
EIA                            Patti Rusher
EMC                            Fawn Engelmann, Fabrizio Zanella
ENST, Paris                    Jean-Jacques Charlot
European CAD Standardization   Adam Morawiec
  Intitiative (ECSI)
Fairchild Semiconductor        Peter LaFlamme
Focus Technology               John Salzillo, Gary Brophy, Mike Arieta,
                               Jim Skane
IBM                            Richard Steinle, Kevin Jackson, Greg Edlund*
InRange                        Elliot Lipin
Intracon Design Ltd.           Derek Laidlaw
Molex                          Gus Panella*
Philips Semiconductor          Todd Andersen
Rockwell Semiconductor         Tim Gilbert
Scottish Electronics           Robert Easson
  Manufacturing Center (SEMC)
Seagate                        Vanessa Howard
Signal Integrity Software      Barry Katz
SGS-Thomson                    Philippe Lefevre
Siemens                        Gerald Bannert, Bernhard Unger, 
                               Christian Marot, Miguel Hernandez,
                               Gil Russell
SSEI                           Tom Hawkins
Stratus                        Bruce Heilbrunn, Steve Mango, Lewis Steiner, 
                               Karla Eignor, Rich Newell
Summit Computer Systems        Bob Davis
Sun Microsystems               Lam Dong, Kevin Ko, Tay Ansari, Ken Weiss
Symmetry                       Andy Hughes
Tektronix                      Nassrin Ghahyasi, Tom Brinkoetter,
                               Brad Weber, John Rettig
Teradyne                       Michael Khusid
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky*
TranSwitch                     Bill Todd
TRILOGIC                       Joe Socha
Ultratest International        Chris O'Connor
Xilinx                         Susan Wu

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.  Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
  
  Date               Bridge Number     Reservation #    Passcode
  Monday, December 7, 1998 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference
  December 18, 1998  (916) 356-9200    3-241993         1195347

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Dima Smolyansky of Time Domain Analysis Systems (TDASystems) produces software
which does model extraction from time domain reflectometry measurement.  He 
sees interest in IBIS and is interested in extending the equipment for IBIS 
model applications.

Gus Panella of Molex is active in the IBIS Users Group working of IBIS
extensions for coupled connector models.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
No Report.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
Bob Ross reported some minor text corrections.  Under Tektronix, Brad Webb
is corrected to Brad Weber in the Participation list and in the text.  Under
Intel, Lynn Dell is corrected to Lyndell Asbenson.

Bob also made corrections sent by Bob Haller who noted that he had made some 
statements attributed to Greg Edlund.  The uploaded minutes have been revised
to show the corrections and to distinguish comments made by Bob Ross and Bob
Haller:

Under IBISEAST OCTOBER 15, 1998 SUMMIT FEEDBACK: 

"Greg also noted that they appreciated Will Hobbs' presentation to move
forward rapidly and to have the IBIS document keep pace with technology."

Has been corrected to:

"Bob Haller also noted that they appreciated Will Hobbs' presentation to
move forward rapidly and to have the IBIS document keep pace with technology."

Under DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1998 SUMMIT MEETING:

"Greg Edlund noted that the Accuracy Committee has arranged for more
Hewlett-Packard equipment than at the October 15, 1998 Summit meeting and
is planning to use the booth.  Greg asked if a CAE vendor could also be
in the booth to show simulations that correlate with measurement."  

has been corrected to:

"Bob Haller noted that the Accuracy Committee has arranged for more 
Hewlett-Packard equipment than at the October 15, 1998 Summit meeting and is 
planning to use the booth.  Bob Haller asked if a CAE vendor could also be in 
the booth to show simulations that correlate with measurement."

The ARs will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
None.

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Syed Huq reported that there have been some roster additions and updates.

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
No report.

Added note: Jon Powell sent out a message that the Models page has been
updated.

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None.

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - No report.

- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
  (IMIC) - Bob Ross reported, as previously discussed that he, Stephen
  Peters, and Raj Raghuram will interface with the I/O Interface Model group.
  Norio Matsui will also participate.  Raj is working on an accuracy test
  comparing a table Spice simulation with the silicon model simulations.  He
  may report his results at the December 7, 1998 IBIS Summit Meeting.

- IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - No report.  Bob Ross will drop this
  item as an agenda topic since the task group is operating at a zero level.

- JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross noted that the co-located
  JEDEC JC-16.2 and IBIS Meeting will be discussed below.

- IEEE P1537 Electronic Data Format Project (Previously listed as the Standard
  Component Data Sheet) - Stephen Peters stated that a meeting had occurred
  where the group is attempting to understand what data to put into the 
  document.  Contact Stephen if you need more information.

IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS
Gus Panella stated that the Connector Group's goal is to produce a document
by January 1, 1999.

JEDEC/IBIS DECEMBER 7, 1998 SUMMIT MEETING
Bob Ross estimated that about 10 participants have signed up so far to the
IBIS meeting to be held in San Diego, California on Monday, December 7, 1998.
However, he does not have the most recent report.  So he estimates about
15 to 20 people - a smaller group for more interactive discussion.

Apparently word has not gone out to the JEDEC group about the meeting.  Bob
and D.C. Sessions will investigate.

While much of the discussion will be interactive, the planned agenda will
include the following:

  Input Threshold Modeling - D.C. Sessions
  IMIC Discussions - Bob Ross
  IMIC Accuracy Report - Tentatively Raj Raghuram
  Overview of JEDEC JC16.2 Activities on Modeling and Test - ?

Bob will formalize the Agenda and have it available a week before the IBIS
meeting.

On the next day Bob and Stephen Peters (along with D.C. Sessions) plan to 
participate at the JEDEC JC-16.2 Meeting on Tuesday, December 8, 1998.
Stephen Plans to give a top-level overview of IBIS at that meeting.

Added Note:  The IBIS Summit Meeting co-located with the JEDEC meetings is
scheduled in San Diego, California on Monday, December 7, 1998 from 12 Noon 
to 5 PM at the Kona Kai Continental Hotel (renamed the Shelter Pointe Hotel
and Marina).  The meeting will start with a free buffet lunch.  Contact Patti
Rusher ([email-masked]) or through the EIA IBIS home page Upcoming Events link
to register for either or both the IBIS Summit meeting and any JEDEC meeting.

DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1999 SUMMIT MEETING
Milt Schwartz indicated that National Semiconductor is planning to sponsor the
buffet lunch.  Milt will also be handling the local logistics including 
signup and collecting and copying presentations for the IBIS Summit meeting.
Bob Ross stated that the IBIS Open Forum is an Associate Sponsor of 
DesignCon99 and that DesignCon99 will be providing the meeting room and other 
refreshments.  A mailing concerning DesignCon99 should appear on the IBIS 
reflectors.  The latest DesignCon99 literature now shows the spelled out IBIS
logo.

Bob reported that DesignCon99 is also providing a booth with electricity and
will cover any setup charges.  Jon Powell will be handling the logistics
of the booth.  The plans are to host the IBIS User's Group with a hardware
demonstration of the Accuracy Specification.  Currently Jon is planning a 
poster with company logos and possibly pointers to their booth numbers at the 
show.

VERSION 3.2 PARSER DEVELOPMENT
Matthew Flora has sent the fix to BUG33 to Atul Agarwal.

Bob Ross stated that he reviewed the latest Version 3.2.1 parser and checked
that the fixes had been done.  It included BUG30 additional tests for [Pin  
Mapping] and BUG32 changes related to BIRD54 to correct an unintended IBIS
Specification misinterpretation forcing a matrix format for single line
package models.

Bob anticipates another version of ibischk3 pending resolution of the 
technical discussion below.

VERSION 3.2 RATIFICATION
Bob Ross indicated that he would like to plan the December 18, 1998 meeting
for IBIS ratification discussion and vote.  He had uploaded the document
ver3_2c.ibs as previously reported and will plan a ver3_2d.ibs document
and a clean version for ratification review.

Bob plans to drop the long standing AR to produce BNF of the IBIS Version 
3.0 specification.  D.C. Sessions asked if anyone else would be willing to
produce the BNF syntax.  No one volunteered.

TEKTRONIX IPA 510 SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION PROPOSAL
Bob Ross introduced the subject by noting at the last meeting Bob, Syed Huq
and Patti Rusher were to work together to implement the software license
transfer of the Tektronix IPA 510 software executable to the IBIS Open Forum
and to work out the details for source code transfer and distribution.

Bob reported that he had contacted Ed Sayre for advice, and Ed joined the
committee.  As a result of discussions in the group, some new issues and
concerns were raised.

A long discussion was held at this meeting relating to some of the aspects of 
the transfer terms and whether the IBIS committee should be doing this.  The 
general concerns were whether this software was significantly relevant to the 
IBIS community and whether the IBIS committee needed to supply free software
that may compete with some possible commercial offerings.  Some of the points 
are documented here.

Syed Huq briefly cited some background and initially proposed that the IPA 510 
executable be offered from the IBIS Web site for a 6 month trial period to
test whether it is applicable to IBIS users.  Matthew Flora and others argued 
that we should be able to do this since we have links to free executables from
other commercial sources.  Bob Ross was more concerned about resolving the
source code distribution problem first.

Dima Smolyansky shared his experiences with this type of product and stressed
that users would need to be supported.  The need for and degree of support was
debated, but it was noted that the software transfer proposal was motivated by
the Tektronix decision not to support for the product.  Matthew argued that
people needing support would still go to the commercial operations, even with
free software available.  Arpad Muranyi cited the commercial Spice business as
an example even with virtually free Spice available.  Matthew stated that free
software can have a positive effect of raising the bar for competitive
products.

Bob Ross expressed concern regarding having the IBIS committee deal with
the source code management issue.  A dedicated volunteer would be needed to 
manage the source code and its improvements.  Other IBIS activities had a
higher priority.

D.C. Sessions stated that this was a copy-left situation.  However, a gate
keeper is required to manage the changes, and support is needed for new
users.

Bob called for a vote on whether the Tektronix proposal should be rejected
(no) or whether discussion of the subject should be continued (yes) since we
had to move onto other issues.  The vote was 4 yes to 2 no to continue the 
discussion.  Bob stated that the discussion will be continued as an agenda 
item at the December 18, 1998 meeting.

COOKBOOK STATUS
(Not Discussed)

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
(Not Discussed)

AR - Matthew Flora issue to the IBIS reflector a short write-up on the IBIS
Model Review Committee.

BIRD55 - [Model Spec] Vmeas Addition
Bob Ross stated that the planned PCI66 discussion would be combined with the 
BIRD55 discussion.  The PCI66 discussion had occurred on the IBIS reflector
regarding some test load enhancements to support the PCI Specification.  The
question raised privately by Kellee Crisafulli was whether BIRD55 was
compatible with possible extensions that might be done as an outcome of the
PCI66 discussion.

Bob summarized the PCI66 issue that Greg Edlund had asked whether IBIS could
handle a separate rising waveform and falling waveform test load (and a
possibly different Vmeas value.  Some other products specify two different
timing test loads.  This includes an older version of the PCI specification.
The merits of doing this were discussed on the reflector with respect to
better matching some best case and worst case loading conditions.  However,
Greg and others still advocated a simpler, one-test load approach for models.

Bob noted that BIRD55 did not deal with these issues.  Rather, it provided
for a minimum and maximum value of Vmeas when needed by certain technologies.
IBIS models for PECL technology need Vmeas to shift for min and max columns
to preserve the constant offset from the min and max values of the positive
voltage rail.  IBIS models for ECL configurations (with the positive
reference at ground) would have the same Vmeas values for min and max
columns.  To a lesser extent the CMOS technology with test points referenced
to a percentage of Vcc would also need min and max column Vmeas values.

Bob stated that multiple test loads could be specified using the [Model
Selector] keyword.  It would be up to the simulator and user to process
this information.  Bob also suggested that even with an approved BIRD55,
the IBIS Open Forum could still decide on handling rising edge and falling 
edge specifications separately.  Bob would propose adding, for example
the [Model] subparameters Vref_f, Rref_f, Cref_f, and Vmeas_f to add the
falling information if it is different to the existing Vref, Rref, Cref and
Vmeas.  In this case, the later parameters would be used only for the rising
edge, and the *_f parameters would be used for the falling edge.  The Vmeas_f
would also have an optional [Model Spec] entry with min and max entries.

After some questions and more discussion, Bob called for a vote.

BIRD55 was approved with 3 abstentions.

BUG31 - Error for [Pulldown] Decreasing Current Should be Warning
Bob Ross noted that we did not have time to discuss this.  However, he was
leaning to close it out with no change.

SERIES ELEMENTS RESTRICTION
Bob Ross stated that the Series element restriction had indirectly become an
IBIS reflector discussion.  The initial discussion was based on a question
on whether differential pins could be specified when attached to Series
elements.  Chris Rokusek had interpreted the specification as indirectly
prohibiting such a connection.  However he would support a BIRD allowing such
an extension.  

Arpad Muranyi had motivated the initial reflector question when dealing with 
a specific input/output configuration spanning two pins.  At the meeting, Bob 
and D.C. Sessions noted that differential source and load terminators within 
a component were common practice in some devices.  Bob thought the restriction
was based on the fact that the [Series Pin Mapping] itself contained the
restriction that limited Series elements to NC and Terminator connections.
Bob had initially wanted a limited usage of the Series element in order to
be consistent with the more limited usage of the Terminator element.  Some 
mentioned on the reflector the Electrical Board Description format could be
used as a workaround.  Arpad argued at the meeting that the EBD approach 
provides an unnecessary complication.  He would prefer no restrictions and 
cited allowing, for example, decoupling capacitors between supplies.

After more general discussions, Bob proposed issuing a BIRD to continue the
discussion on the IBIS reflector.  A BIRD removing the restrictive sections
in the [Series Pin Mapping] keyword would satisfy all concerns.

AR - Bob Ross issue a BIRD removing the [Series Pin Mapping] connection
restrictions allowing it to be used for only NC and Terminator models.

100 POINT BIRD?
(No discussion)

EIAJ IMIC TECHNICAL DISCUSSION
(No Discussion)

NEXT MEETING:
The next meeting is the IBIS Summit Meeting on December 7, 1988 in San Diego,
California.  There will not be any teleconference connection.

The following meeting will be on Friday, December 18, 1998 from 8:00 AM to 
10:00 AM.  IBIS Version 3.2 Ratification Vote is planned.  Ibischk3 parser
acceptance vote is planned.  Votes on any new BIRDs are planned.
==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-56
            2111 NE 25th Ave. 
            Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            17641 NE 67th Court
            Redmond, WA 98052

LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems(formerly Quad Design)
            1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
 
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, 
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eia.org

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================