Subject: 9/10/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:56:04 -0700

DATE: 9/14/99

SUBJECT: 9/10/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
Applied Simulation Technology  Raj Raghuram, Norio Matsui, Neven Orhanovic,
                               Fred Ballesteri
Avanti                         Nikolai Bannov
Cadence Design                 Mike LaBonte*
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq*
Compaq                         Bob Haller*, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman,
                               Maher Elasad
Cypress                        (Rajesh Manapat)
EMC Corporation                Fabrizio Zanella
Fairchild Semiconductor        [Peter LaFlamme], Craig Klem
H.A.S. Electronics             (Haruny Said)
Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.)  Paul Gregory, Henry Wu
HyperLynx (& Pads Software)    Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli, Lynne Green,
                               John Angulo*
IBM                            Greg Edlund, Michael Cohen, Praven Patel
Incases                        Olaf Rethmeier*, Werner Rissiek, David Eagles,
                               Wilhelm Arnoldi, Ulrich Losch
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern,
                               Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson,
                               Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou,
                               Will Hobbs, Henri Maramis
LSI Logic (Symbios Logic)      Scott King
Mentor Graphics                Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud, Sherif Hammad,
                               Jean Oudinot, Markku Kukkanen, Martin Groeber,
                               Karine Loudet, Hisham Gamal, Evgeny Wasserman  
Mitsubishi                     (Tam Cao)
Motorola                       (Ron Werner)
National Semiconductor         Milt Schwartz
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda
NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Philips Semiconductor          Todd Andersen, Peter Christiaans
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Siemens                        Bernhard Unger, Christian Mitschke, 
                               Manfred Maurer, Peter Kaiser, Wolfram Meyer,
                               Gerald Bannert, Harmut Ibowski, Katja Zuleeg,
                               Hans Pichlmaier, Eckhard Lenski, Kortheuer Udo,
                               Christian Sporrer
SiQual                         Scott McMorrow
Texas Instruments              Jean-Claude Perrin, Shankar Balasubramaniah,
                               Ramzi Ammar, Thomas Fisher
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky
Viewlogic Systems              Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh, Cary Mandel,
                               (Jon Powell)
VeriBest                       Ian Dodd
VLSI Technology                D.C. Sessions*

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999:
3Dfx Interactive               Ken Wu
Actel Corporation              Silvia Montoya
Alcatel                        Steven Criel
Analytical Edge                Robert Easson
Applied Microelectronics       Brian Sanderson
BMW                            Friedrich Haslinger
Bogatin Enterprise             Eric Bogatin
Bosch Telecom                  Detlef Wolf
Celestica                      Danny Da Silva
ECI Telecom                    Daniel Adar
EIA                            [Patti Rusher], Cecilia Fleming*,
                               Dan Heinemeier 
Electronique                   Catherine Gross
EFM Consulting                 Ekkehard Miersch
FCI                            John Ellis
High Design Technology         Razvan Ene
Hitachi ULSI                   Hideki Fukuda
Infineon                       Thomas Latzel
Intracon Design                Mike Osmond
Litton Systems                 Robert Bremer
Matsushita                     Atsuji Itoh
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella
Nortel Networks                Martin Hall (& at Viewlogic), Calvin Trowell
Oce Printing Systems           Ernst Deiringer
Praegitzer Design              Rick Newell
Rockwell Collins               Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau
Samsung                        Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi
Shindengen                     Tsuyoshi Horigome
Signals & Systems Engineering  Tom Hawkins
STMicroelectronics             Fabrice Boissieres, Philippe LeFevre
StorageTek                     Nick Krull
Sun Microsystems               Victor Chang, Kevin Ko
Tektronix                      Tom Brinkoetter
Teradyne                       Mikhail Khusid
VDOL                           Robert Novosel
Xilinx                         Susan Wu
(Unaffiliated, Retired)        Bruce Wenniger

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
  
  Date                Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode
  October 1, 1999     (916) 356-9200   8-40171          4196281
  October 14, 1999 IBIS Summit Meeting, No Teleconference

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
No new participants.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Cecilia Fleming noted that invoices have been sent to members that have been
dropped.  Bob Ross stated that we have 30 official members and also a 
potential new member pending payment.  Bob also mentioned that Guy de Burgh 
has been updating the membership list with primary and secondary members as 
required by EIA.  He still needs responses from about six member companies.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The August 20, 1999 Minutes were approved without corrections.

Bob Ross noted that work has been done on the following AR's, and they will
be discussed at the next meeting:

AR - Bob Ross and Cecilia Fleming research what is needed to align the IBIS
bylaws with EP-20.

AR - Bob Ross and Cecilia Fleming write position definitions for the new 
positions of Webmaster and Postmaster.

Other AR's will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
Bob Ross stated that we will discuss the issue of IBIS dues and funding at the
next meeting.  We currently collect about $15,000 per year.  Our direct
expenditures are modest.  However, we do need to provide funding to EIA for
their staffing and services.  Based on EIA budget allocations among various
committees, we need to provide an estimated $22,000 for year 2000.

Bob plans to provide more budget information on the IBIS reflector.  Some
possible proposals for discussion might include raising the membership fee to 
$750 or higher, have a split membership fee of $500 for small companies and 
$1000 for large companies, or have a higher membership fee (say $2000) to 
cover other expenses as well.

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Syed Huq indicated that he updated Specification page so that it describes 
Version 3.2 as the August 20, 1999 version of IBIS.  Syed also updated the 
HyperLynx logo and added the Avanti logo to the IBIS Poster page.  He removed 
the AMP logo.

Syed has received a lot of Roster updates from members along with membership 
information from Guy de Burgh.  Syed plans to have the Roster updated next 
week.

Bob Ross uploaded a revised version timing101.ppt by Todd Westerhoff
in the training directory as timing101b.zip:

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/training/

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Bob Ross noted that the Samsung IBIS model link previously published no longer
points to any IBIS models.

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
Stephen Peters on BIRD63 - Documentation of Receiver Setup and Hold Timing
  Conditions
Bob Ross on comments on Will Hobb's API (Mentioned briefly in the BIRD61
  discussion)
Arpad Muranyi on list of IBIS Version 4.0 functions (also Connector
  Specification Status already scheduled) (Not discussed)
Mike LaBonte on time spent on formal certification processes

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - Cecilia Fleming reported no further news on
the comments she forwarded to IEC in response to the letter ballot.  Bob Ross
stated again that the TC93 meeting is being held in Arlington, Virginia on
September 22-23 and that IEC 62014-1 is on the agenda.

- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
  (IMIC) - Bob Ross had no further report.

- IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - Bob Ross reported that Jean-Claude
Perrin held a meeting at UTE in Paris on August 31, 1999 in preparation for
the TC93 meeting.  He is also continuing to do power supply HF current 
measurements on selected circuits.  Test boards are under design.
  
- JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - D.C. Sessions reported that he
will be in Vancouver, British Columbia at a JEDEC meeting and will report
in a formal presentation on the progress on BIRD61, BIRD62, and BIRD63.  These
BIRDs are of great interest to JEDEC and are needed for specifying certain
new technologies.  D.C. noted that he will send copies of his presentation
to anyone who request them directly from him.

EIA-656-A AND ANSI/EIA-656-A UPDATE
Cecilia Fleming reported that EIA-656-A has been sent to Global Engineering
for publication.  It has also been sent to ANSI, and she expects approval in
two to three weeks.

Stephen Peters asked about a possible press release.  Bob Ross stated that
he plans that EIA issue a press release announcing ANSI/EIA-656-A as soon
as ANSI approval is achieved.

IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS
Bob Haller reported that the IBIS Users Group is meeting on Wednesday, 
September 15, 1999 (3 PM to 5 PM Eastern time) at NESA in Stow, Massachusetts.
The agenda is to prepare for the IBIS Summit Meeting.  It will be possible
to teleconference into this meeting.  Bob noted that several people are 
working on some accuracy test cases.  More help from others would be welcome.

IBIS SUMMIT OCTOBER 14, 1999
Bob Ross noted that a second call for presentations, participation and
sponsorship has been sent out for the IBIS Summit meeting scheduled on
Thursday, October 14, 1999 at Marlborough, Massachusetts during the week of
the PCB Conference East.

Bob reported on recent information from Kathy Breda.  About 10 people have 
signed up.  Several people commented that they plan to attend and may not be 
included in Kathy's count.  Bob stated that is about what is expected at this 
time.  So far Praegitzer, Cadence and NESA (along with the IBIS Users Group) 
are expected to be co-sponsors.  We still need to follow up on some other 
potential sponsors.

One presentation has been submitted so far:

  Tables and Equations by Lynn Green, HyperLynx

A few others are expected.  However, Bob would like to have more time for
group discussion topics.  Topics will probably include

  Business (if needed)
  Accuracy Specification
  Connector Specification
  Input Modeling
  Spice to IBIS

With about one hour each and a few presentations, we can easily take a full
day.  Stephen Peters mentioned that a few slides could be given in the Input 
Modeling presentation.

Bob Haller noted that it would be good to have the discussions first, since
longer than expected presentations might cut into some valuable discussion.

S2IBIS3 COMMITTEE REPORT
Arpad Muranyi reported that two meetings occurred on August 25, 1999 and on
September 2, 1999.  The group is continuing to go over the list of
improvements from Michael Cohen's presentation at the June 18, 1999 IBIS
Summit meeting.  Arpad made available the IBIS Center program to the
committee members.

Syed Huq stated that he plans to draft a requirements document.  Bob Ross
noted that the next meeting is scheduled on Thursday, September 30, 1999.

COOKBOOK STATUS
Stephen Peters had no report.

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
Matthew Flora sent out a model from Transmeta for review.  The model did
reveal a potential ibischk3 problem.  

Matthew also stated that he needs some new people (replacing some individuals
no longer with the companies) to send models to.

TIME SPENT ON FORMAL CERTIFICATION PROCESS (new topic)
In proposing this topic, Mike LaBonte asked if the Committee had spent too
much time on the final processing of comments in order to formally approve
EIA-656-A.  This detracted from other ongoing activities.  Bob Ross listed a 
number of ongoing Committee activities including the Accuracy Specification, 
Connector Specification, ibischk3 bugs, Spice to IBIS conversion, and general 
IBIS Version 4.0 issues (such as Input Modeling).

In introducing the discussion, Bob stated that the document had undergone a
formal public review, and we needed to follow some rigorous processes to 
assure that all concerns were properly addressed.  The process actually went
smoothly since no really controversial issues emerged.  We do not expect to
undergo this type of process until we deal with formal EIA ratification of
IBIS Version 4.X.  However, a similar review process would be applied to any
other document that would be considered for EIA and ANSI standardization
(such as the Accuracy Specification).

D.C. Sessions commented that we did produce a better document as a result of 
the review process.  Stephen Peters was concerned by the amount of time spent
on line-by-line review of comments.  Bob suggested that some of this could 
have been handled off line by a committee.  We would then just vote on the 
committee recommendation.  Bob also noted that we did allow at least two weeks
to consider any significant comment and response.

Mike LaBonte suggested that during such an intensive period of review we
could also schedule more IBIS meetings.  Bob noted that during that time
the IBIS meetings were at two-week intervals.  We also could have conducted
the voting off-line by e-mail.

ACCURACY SPECIFICATION DISCUSSION
Bob Haller introduced the discussion by stating that the purpose of the
Accuracy Specification document is to provide a method for model creators to
communicate to model users that the model has been tested for accuracy.
Furthermore, it communicates how the model correlates with reference data. 

Bob mentioned that several individuals are attempting to do some correlation
studies, but more help will be welcome.

Bob Ross stated that the accuracy specification itself needs to be applied
as a reality check and to uncover any issues, especially with correlation
methods.

Syed Huq asked whether the Accuracy Specification was to be used for complex
devices.  Bob Haller answered that it focused on all I/O pins of any device.
Bob indicated that some of the tests could be done with Spice Models assuming
that the Spice model correlation to measurement was known.

D.C. Sessions added that a good test engineer can modify existing tests used
in production to do some of the IBIS test extractions.  In fact, the IBIS
formatted data can be used as the parametric definition of I/Os.  Syed
commented that the V-T tables were more difficult to extract.  D.C. argued
that test engineers can also provide transient responses. 

Bob Haller stated that a keyword could be added to indicate that accuracy
information exists for the model.  Bob and Stephen Peters both stated that
having such information provided confidence in the model.

Stephen Peters wondered if the document should be referred to as a Validation
Specification.  Bob stated that this had been considered by the Accuracy
Committee.  In the introduction of the document a definition of Accuracy is
given as a measure of the true value.  Bob Ross commented that validation
processes might also consider the values of other parameters such as input
thresholds that are not measured.

Mike LaBonte mentioned that some reference waveforms could be incorporated
into the Spice to IBIS requirements.

Bob Ross concluded that more discussion will be scheduled at IBIS Summit
meeting.

IBISCHK3 BUG REPORT STATUS
Bob Ross introduced the issue regarding how we deal with ibischk3 bugs.  Fixes
to both BUG36 and BUG37 are known and are fairly simple.  The question is who 
should implement the fixes.  At this time we do not have funds for more parser 
work by Atul Agarwal.  Even so, simple fixes could be done by Matthew Flora,
Chris Rokusek or Atul.  

D.C. Sessions commented that the Linux model uses a method of source code
control.  Matthew stated that he, Chris and Atul use RCS and do share with
each other any fixes to assure that the common code base is the same.

In response to comments, Bob stated that thirteen companies have funded the
ibischk3 parser development.

After some discussion, Bob stated that he work with Atul, Chris and Matthew
on suggestions to implement bug fixes.

AR - Bob Ross ask Atul Agarwal, Chris Rokusek, and Matthew Flora their
recommendations on fixing bugs.  Also D.C. Sessions and Syed Huq may be
consulted concerning source code control and Linux models.

Matthew stated that he now has more time.  He is working on BUG34 suggestions
with respect to the existing AR:

AR - Matthew Flora issue a revised BUG34 to document the conditions where
Warning messages are issued.

Matthew introduced another issue where ibischk3 may operate in a compiler
specific manner.  Under Windows, the check for searching the director for
.pkg files in the same directory may call some compiler-specific utilities.
D.C. commented that compiler switches are often used.

BIRD62 - ENHANCED CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEIVER THRESHOLDS
Stephen Peters introduced BIRD62 first since BIRD61 has already been discussed
at the August 20, 1999 IBIS Meeting.  The intent of BIRD62 is to provide
receiver threshold specification in a tighter manner than possible using Vinh
and Vinl.

BIRD62 adds the keyword [Receiver Thresholds] (or [Receiver Spec]) and new
threshold subparameters.  These subparameters are made relative to a
designated receiver trip point subparameter Vth.  The trip point can vary with
supply voltage changes or external reference voltage changes in a designated
manner.

Stephen commented that the traditional typ-min-max format is not used because
the typ-min-max meaning is tied to just the voltage changes and not the
process corners.  Stephen also mentioned that the [Receiver Threshold]
subparameters, if defined, would supersede the Vinh and Vinl information.
This needs to be stated.

D.C. Sessions noted that new technologies such as STTL and HSTL cannot be
handled by existing IBIS Version 3.2 subparameters.  BIRD62 is important
to JEDEC.

Bob Ross asked for clarification of Vth_min and Vth_max.  Stephen indicated
that Vth tracks voltage reference changes in the designated manner.  Vth_min
and Vth_max may give deviations from the Vth based on other tolerances or
process changes.  So the min and max meaning may be different.  Stephen
commented that may need to look at other terminology, if this is confusing.

BIRD63 - DOCUMENTATION OF RECEIVER SETUP AND HOLD TIMING CONDITIONS (new)
Stephen Peters then introduced the recently issued BIRD63.  BIRD63 defines the
edge rate and overdrive conditions for defining the data book setup and hold 
test conditions.  Stephen stated that the he has not yet reviewed the comments
just issued by D.C. Sessions.  Stephen expects some changes.

BIRD63 introduces the [Tester Spec] keyword and subparameters for tester trip
points.  Similar to [Receiver Thresholds], the Tester_Vth defines the
reference trip point.  Tester_Vhigh and Tester_Vlow are offsets from
Tester_Vth.  Also similar to [Receiver Thresholds], the [Tester Spec] 
subparameters can be applied to single-ended or differential conditions.
Tester slew rates are also defined.

Stephen commented that BIRD63 supports different setup and hold slew rates.
He did not know if different rates were used in practice.  Often the value
1 V/ns is used.  D.C. Sessions commented that the slew rate entry should be
entered as one number, not as the ratio that is documented in BIRD63.

Bob Ross commented that some of the subparameters for both BIRD62 and BIRD63 
may fit into the [Model Spec] keyword.  He was also concerned using the
same subparameter for both single-ended or differential entries, where the
where the definition is differentiated by a subparameter value.  Bob felt that
different subparameter names are needed for differential definitions.

BIRD61 - ENHANCED CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEIVERS
Stephen Peters introduced the discussion on BIRD61 by noting that BIRD61 was
intended to provide sufficient information to produce an abstract model for
describing an receiver and internal delays associated with arbitrary input
waveforms.  A model needs to be extracted from the information tables.  It
could be adjustment coefficients or an equation.  The tables themselves were
not intended to be used directly.

Stephen stated that he received some comments indicating that more information
in the form of a three-dimensional table might be needed.

D.C. Sessions commented on the need for a logical receiver model.  Perhaps a
generic Spice Model could be developed as the basis of a receiver model.

Bob Ross commented that the actual Spice model itself is the logical receiver
model, but business constraints prevent it from being issued.  So the
technical challenge is to seek a alternative to an existing solution that is
of the required accuracy.  Bob also noted that he wanted to avoid different 
solutions that might support vendor differentiation.  That would not serve
the industry.

Also, Bob mentioned that this issue could relate to the API issue raised by
Will Hobbs.  (We did not have time to discuss this issue directly.)  The API
would allow executing the actual Spice model without requiring it to be 
revealed.

Bob stated that this discussion should be continued on the reflector and that
he plans to issue some comments.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL STATUS
Matthew Flora reported that Kellee Crisafulli has been doing more work on 
the Connector proposal and may send out some material next week.

NUMBER OF POINTS IN VT TABLE
Not discussed.

NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, October 1, 1999 from 8:00
AM to 10:00 AM.
==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-209
            2111 NE 25th Ave. 
            Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Manager, Viewlogic Systems
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010-8437

LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010

WEBMASTER:  Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
            [email-masked]
            Signal Integrity Engineer, Cisco Systems
            170 West Tasman Drive
            San Jose, CA 95134-1706

POSTMASTER: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            114715 N.E. 95th Street
            Redmond, WA 98052
 
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, 
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eia.org

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================