Subject: EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes 12/3/99

From: Guy de Burgh <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:31:39 -0800 (PST)

DATE: 12/7/99

SUBJECT: 12/3/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
Applied Simulation Technology  Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui, Neven Orhanovic,
                               Fred Ballesteri
Avanti                         Nikolai Bannov
Cadence Design                 Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq*
Compaq                         Bob Haller*, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman,
                               Maher Elasad, Peter LaFlamme, Doug Burns
Cypress                        (Rajesh Manapat)
EMC Corporation                Fabrizio Zanella, Alex Nosovitski, Shan Haq
Fairchild Semiconductor        [Peter LaFlamme], Craig Klem, Graham Connolly,
                               Christian Klein*
H.A.S. Electronics             (Haruny Said)
Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.)  Paul Gregory, Henry Wu
HyperLynx (& Pads Software)    Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli, Lynne Green,
                               John Angulo*, Gene Garat, Robin Edwards
IBM                            Greg Edlund*, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel,
                               Paul Clouser
Incases                        Olaf Rethmeier, Werner Rissiek, David Eagles,
                               Wilhelm Arnoldi, Ulrich Losch
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern,
                               Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson,
                               Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou,
                               Will Hobbs, Henri Maramis
LSI Logic (Symbios Logic)      Scott King
Mentor Graphics                Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud, Sherif Hammad,
                               Jean Oudinot, Markku Kukkanen, Martin Groeber,
                               Karine Loudet, Hisham Gamal, Evgeny Wasserman,  
                               Tom Dagostino, Mohamed Nasef
Mitsubishi                     (Tam Cao)
Motorola                       Ron Werner*
National Semiconductor         Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda,
                               Ed Sayre III, Jinhua Chen
NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Nortel Networks                Martin Hall (& at Viewlogic), Calvin Trowell*
                               Ross Pryor
Philips Semiconductor          Todd Andersen, Peter Christiaans
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Siemens                        Bernhard Unger, Christian Mitschke, 
                               Manfred Maurer, Peter Kaiser, Wolfram Meyer,
                               Gerald Bannert, Harmut Ibowski, Katja Zuleeg,
                               Hans Pichlmaier, Eckhard Lenski, Kortheuer Udo,
                               Christian Sporrer
SiQual                         Scott McMorrow
Texas Instruments              Jean-Claude Perrin, Shankar Balasubramaniah,
                               Ramzi Ammar, Thomas Fisher
3Com                           Roy Leventhal*
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky, Steven Corey
Viewlogic Systems              Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Cary Mandel,
                               (Jon Powell)
VeriBest                       [Ian Dodd]
Via Technologies               (Weber Chuang)
VLSI Technology                D.C. Sessions

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999:
3Dfx Interactive               Ken Wu
Actel Corporation              Silvia Montoya
Alcatel                        Steven Criel
Analytical Edge                Robert Easson
Applied Microelectronics       Brian Sanderson
BMW                            Friedrich Haslinger
Bogatin Enterprise             Eric Bogatin
Bosch Telecom                  Detlef Wolf
Celestica                      Danny Da Silva
Dynamics Research Corporation  Mike Walsh
ECI Telecom                    Daniel Adar
EIA                            [Patti Rusher], Cecilia Fleming,
                               Dan Heinemeier 
Electronique                   Catherine Gross
EFM Consulting                 Ekkehard Miersch
FCI                            John Ellis
Foxcomm                        Jeff Walden
General DataComm               Laurence Michaels
High Design Technology         Razvan Ene
Hitachi ULSI                   Hideki Fukuda
Infineon                       Thomas Latzel
Intracon Design                Mike Osmond
KAW                            Shinichi Maeda
Litton Systems                 Robert Bremer
Lucent                         Jason Pritchard
Matsushita                     Atsuji Itoh
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella*
Newbridge Networks             Bruce Carlile
Oce Printing Systems           Ernst Deiringer
Praegitzer Design              Rick Newell, Paul Galloway, Joe Socha
Rockwell Collins               Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau
Rode Consulting                Chris Rode
Samsung                        Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi
Shindengen                     Tsuyoshi Horigome
Signals & Systems Engineering  Tom Hawkins
STMicroelectronics             Fabrice Boissieres, Philippe LeFevre
Stratus                        Keith Vieira
StorageTek                     Nick Krull
Sun Microsystems               Victor Chang Kevin Ko, Greg Fitzgerald,
                               Nick LaPlaca
Tektronix                      Tom Brinkoetter
Teradyne                       Mikhail Khusid
VDOL                           Robert Novosel
Xilinx                         Susan Wu
(Unaffiliated, Retired)        Bruce Wenniger

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
  
  Date                Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode
  December 17, 1999   (916) 356-9200   2-368942         8917482

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Bob Ross started the meeting and stated that there were the required number
of companies present to establish a quorum.
Bob Ross and Stephen Peters conducted the meeting.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Dues Statements to be sent out in mid Dec.  Several companies joined late and will
be billed just the difference for year 2000.  

Another company is joining.  We are waiting the receipt of the purchase
order before officially announcing the company.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The November 11, 1999 IBIS Open Forum Meeting minutes were approved without
change.

The AR's will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
None.

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Syed Huq has updated the roster for Nortel and, the Siemens URL and the link to
the IMIC document.

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Jon Powell uploaded a new Model Page and put in links to the company home site
and also to models.  Jon discovered a changed link for Infineon Technologies:

  http://www.infineon.com/products/memory/appl/models/3177.htm

Send comments and new links to Jon.  He will do another update over Christmas
vacation.

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Bob Ross had no further progress report
from Cecilia Fleming.  However formal ratification of IBIS Version 3.2 as
IEC 62104-1 is still expect shortly (a month or less).

- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
(IMIC) - Bob Ross had no further report and repeated from last meeting that a
Version 1.2 has been posted for review with a deadline of December 25, 1999.
Note added after the meeting: the link to the document has been moved and is
now located at the bottom of:

  http://tsc.eiaj.or.jp/eds/iopg.htm

- IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation
(formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross
had no report.

- JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross had no report.

DESIGNCON 2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING
Bob Ross reported that Jon Powell sent out a request for Member Companies to
to provide an 8-1/2 by 11 inch logo on a hard board (foam) for display at the
IBIS booth.  There is a possibility that Bob Haller will arrange a new accuracy
demonstration for the booth.

Bob Ross and Milt Schwartz are preparing the initial announcement to be
sent out in early to mid December.

Bob Ross stated that the IBIS Summit meeting is being held on Monday,
January 31, 2000 in Santa Clara, California.  The IBIS Open Forum is listed 
again as an Associate Sponsor of DesignCon 2000 which means that DesignCon
is providing the meeting room and refreshments and also booth space.

Milt Schwartz offered that National Semiconductor is sponsoring again the
buffet luncheon.  He also stated that presenters may send him electronic
copies, and National Semiconductor will make copies available at the meeting.

Bob indicated that Jon Powell will be providing the booth and coordinating
the setup.  He plans again to have IBIS Open Forum member company
logos posted on the backdrop.  It will be a place to meet, pick up literature,
and possibly host an electronic accuracy demonstration.

Bob stated plans that we will be sending out the first notice in early
December.  We do have several presentations and will plan on some extended
discussions on some of the new topics that are now being considered.

DATE2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING
Bob Ross commented that the DATE2000 IBIS Summit meeting associated with the
Design Automation and Testing in Europe conference is still planned to be
held in Paris, France on Friday, March 31, 2000. The meeting will end early in
the afternoon to allow attendees to fly back that evening.  Mentor
Graphics and Incases are co-sponsors, but others are expected.  The PCB
Symposium is scheduled for Thursday, March 30, 2000.

COOKBOOK STATUS
Stephen Peters had no report.

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
No new models.

S2IBIS3 PROPOSAL DISCUSSION

Bob Ross raised the issue of whether IBIS should fund projects that
conflict with commercial projects.

S2IBIS3 COMMITTEE REPORT
Michael Cohen gave a short history of the committee. They have had several
meetings and have produced a document for review.
The document resides in the IBIS Home Page under s2ibis3 Project:

  http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm

or directly from

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/s2ibis3/

A note was sent to the IBIS and SI relectors inviting reviews of the document.
Mike Cohen noted that there were no real value responses except from one person.
Bob Ross drafted a cover letter for potential bidders. Mike Cohen will
review it and send to the committee next week.

Bob Ross noted that we are now at the next step. One of the options is to stop
here. The other option, which is the committee's intention, is to see if anyone
wants to build a S2IBIS3 product that conforms to the document.

Bob Ross added that, for a number of years, we have had Spice to IBIS 2 from
North Carolina that was created under a Darpa contract. This was then turned
over to the IBIS committee.

Bob Ross continued that before we send out the bid we should decide whether or
not to go forward.  The issue is that we do have one commercial product that
deals with Spice to IBIS conversion. It is not a free product like the North
Carolina, but is a better product.

The product in question is from Applied Simulation Technology. It is a public
product. Furthermore Applied Simulation Technology are a voting member of the
IBIS committee. Bob Ross noted that this project would conflict with a commercial
interest.

Bob Ross then asked if anyone has any arguments in favor of requesting bids
to fund the S2IBIS3 project.

Mike Cohen said that he does not see this product conflicting with the currently
existing commercial product. Mike said there are reasons to have both, and it
gives the smaller companies a tool to generate IBIS without spending too much
money. Mike said that it is not a conflict because it furthers the IBIS spec.

Stephen Peters noted that we faced a similar situation with a parameter extraction
product from Tektronix. The IBIS committee at that time rejected that proposal,
thereby setting a precedent. Mike Cohen pointed out that there were differences
between that situation and this one.

Bob Ross gave a history of S2IBIS2. The existing Spice to IBIS code
(originally from North Carolina) is freeware, and served its purpose of helping
to develop IBIS models. It has been used as a seed for companies to modify for
their own flavor of Spice. It was never intended to be a commercial product. It
was never of commercial quality. Bob noted that IBIS has been in this arena for
a long time, and should maintain and upgrade the product to support the latest
IBIS specification.

Syed Huq noted that there were no commercial alternatives to S2IBIS and S2IBIS2
when these programs were developed. This shareware is being used by the majority
of the model developed developers. The proposal, S2IBIS3, is really bug fixing
and extending it to IBIS version 3. Commercial solutions are always welcome, but
it is up to the user community to decide whether they want commercially available
software or freeware from the IBIS forum. Syed continued that this is a logical
progression of things that we have been doing for a long time and gave, as an
example, that the free Berkeley Spice has not prevented the success of commercial
Spice programs.

Ron Werner noted that shareware shows proof of concept, and companies can use
it and expand on it. He further noted that given that amount of time and the
number of people that are using S2IBIS2 that he is not too excited about putting
out bids and paying somebody to upgrade the product that is there.

Arpad Muranyi noted that S2IBIS has some issues, and a commercial product has
better quality. The plan is make S2IBIS2 more user friendly and fix the bugs.
Arpad expressed concern as to how much money the IBIS forum can put into S2IBIS3.

Roy Leventhal asked if by having a piece of shareware for free will that
prevent commercial vendors taking it, improving it, and selling it, and does the
lack of the shareware have an impact on the adoption of IBIS.

Bob Ross noted that the lack of shareware has not affected the adoption
of IBIS. He also noted that the freeware does not prevent commercial vendors
from making their own improvements.

Roy Leventhal mentioned that he has trouble getting IBIS models and that the lack
of a S2IBIS converter doesn't seem to affect that.

Stephen Peters mentioned that the presence or lack of a S2IBIS converter does
not affect the availability of models, but the issue is the quality of the
models from the S2IBIS converter.

Bob Ross noted that if it was the intent of the IBIS committee to sell this product
then we do not have any business being in this arena. IBIS is a public consortium
generating public standards and offering free tools. It is not in the business of
creating a commercially available product. 

Syed Huq noted that one of the enablers for vendors to create IBIS models is the
S2IBIS tool. S2IBIS3 will be an enabler to further generate more models.

Bob Ross noted that we have an obligation to maintain the current S2IBIS tool.
Withdrawing it is not a option.

Ron Werner suggested that there should be some enticement for commercial people
to improve S2IBIS.

Matt Flora wanted to hear a discussion of what we think would be the result of
not funding an S2IBIS3 and wanted to know if we would be having this debate if
no commercial product currently existed.

Fred Ballesteri noted that IBIS actively promotes S2IBIS, unlike Berkeley which
does not promote Spice. This active promotion is stifling commercial vendors
from producing their own. He noted that it is not fair to take ideas from his
company's product and exploit them by implementing them in S2IBIS3. S2IBIS3, a free
product, is in competition with commercial products. He noted that, in his view, that
S2IBIS has done more to hurt IBIS than help it. He further noted that IBIS is in
this predicament because IBIS has been promoting a tool that does not reflect the
current state of IBIS.

Bob Ross noted that the IBIS committee has been very supportive of commercial
entries. He suggested that this be put to a formal vote at the next meeting.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW 

Bob Ross gave an overview of the specification.  He mentioned the links on the
Web to the spec and the samples.  The spec. is going to be considered as a
separate document and is intended to describe connectors only and currently
only lossless connectors.  There is a lot of similarity with IBIS but a lot of
differences as well.
 
Gus Panella pointed out that the uploaded samples were generated under the
original spec proposal (0.31) and may have some minor deviation from the 0.92
spec.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL

Arpad Murani suggested that we should set a goal in setting a time for
resolution of this proposal, and whether this proposal should be standalone
or part of the IBIS spec.

Arpad noted that the connector spec is about two years late, and he would like
to be included as soon as possible.

Bob Ross noted that the document needs to be reviewed, discussed and voted on.
He mentioned that with this in mind the best target date would be Q1/2000,
and this is an estimate.

Gus Panella noted, along with Bob Ross, that a separate spec. is the quickest way to
go, initially. It could be incorporated later. Gus noted that both he and Kellee
Chrisafulli encourage reflector discussion.

The latest documents are available from the EIA IBIS Home page
and:

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/

Gus clarified that this is a lossless model, but a lossy model could be made
using the cascaded multiline matrix. A frequency dependent matrix will be 
included later.

Stephen Peters and Gus Panella clarified how the lossy model could be
implemented.

Stephen Peters mentioned that Bob Ross wanted a review committee to take a look
at the spec.  Stephen asked for volunteers.

Matthew Flora asked what the reaction of the connector vendors to the spec. has 
been. Gus Panella responded that a number of companies have reviewed it, and that
it conforms to their modeling process fairly well.

Matthew Flora mentioned that Bob Ross had a good idea of trying to create models
for real connectors rather than contrived connectors.
Gus Panella discussed the examples and verification process. He outlined the
method of taking a real connector and making a model out of it.

Matthew Flora asked once the spec. is ratified how quickly will models become
available. Gus Panella responded that Molex is making models.

Stephen Peters asked how simulator companies will respond to this spec.
Matthew Flora said he assumed HyperLynx would since they were so involved in the spec.
 
Raj Raghuram felt it would not be very difficult to add.
 
Gus Panella pointed out that the inductance handling might be a little bit different
from current implementations.  He said that he feels support will be more of a
simulator issue than a model building issue.
 
Raj Raghuram suggested that the capacitance matrices may be harder to implement that
the inductances.

Stephen Peters encouraged everyone to review the spec.

NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, December 17, 1999 from
8:00 AM to 10:00 AM.

Stephen Peters closed the meeting.

==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-209
            2111 NE 25th Ave. 
            Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Manager, Viewlogic Systems
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010-8437

LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010

WEBMASTER:  Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
            [email-masked]
            Signal Integrity Engineer, Cisco Systems
            170 West Tasman Drive
            San Jose, CA 95134-1706

POSTMASTER: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            114715 N.E. 95th Street
            Redmond, WA 98052
 
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, 
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================