Subject: EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes - 12/17/99

From: [email-masked] (Guy de Burgh)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:54:40 -0800

DATE: 12/21/99

SUBJECT: 12/17/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
3Com                           Roy Leventhal*
Applied Simulation Technology  Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui, Neven Orhanovic,
                               Fred Ballesteri*
Avanti                         Nikolai Bannov
Cadence Design                 Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq*
Compaq                         Bob Haller*, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman,
                               Maher Elasad, Peter LaFlamme, Doug Burns
Cypress                        (Rajesh Manapat)
EMC Corporation                Fabrizio Zanella, Alex Nosovitski, Shan Haq
Fairchild Semiconductor        [Peter LaFlamme], Craig Klem, Graham Connolly,
                               Christian Klein*
H.A.S. Electronics             (Haruny Said)
Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.)  Paul Gregory, Henry Wu
HyperLynx (& Pads Software)    Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli*, 
                               Lynne Green, John Angulo*, Gene Garat, 
                               Robin Edwards
IBM                            Greg Edlund, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel,
                               Paul Clouser
Incases                        Olaf Rethmeier, Werner Rissiek, David Eagles,
                               Wilhelm Arnoldi, Ulrich Losch
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern,
                               Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson,
                               Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou,
                               Will Hobbs, Henri Maramis
LSI Logic (Symbios Logic)      Scott King
Mentor Graphics                Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud, Sherif Hammad,
                               Jean Oudinot, Markku Kukkanen, Martin Groeber,
                               Karine Loudet, Hisham Gamal, Evgeny Wasserman,  
                               Tom Dagostino, Mohamed Nasef
Mitsubishi                     (Tam Cao)
Motorola                       Ron Werner*
National Semiconductor         Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda,
                               Ed Sayre III, Jinhua Chen
NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Nortel Networks                Martin Hall (& at Viewlogic), Calvin Trowell,
                               Ross Pryor
Philips Semiconductor          Todd Andersen, Peter Christiaans
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Siemens                        Bernhard Unger, Christian Mitschke, 
                               Manfred Maurer, Peter Kaiser, Wolfram Meyer,
                               Gerald Bannert, Harmut Ibowski, Katja Zuleeg,
                               Hans Pichlmaier, Eckhard Lenski, Kortheuer Udo,
                               Christian Sporrer
SiQual                         Scott McMorrow
Texas Instruments              Jean-Claude Perrin*, Shankar Balasubramaniah,
                               Ramzi Ammar, Thomas Fisher
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky*, Steven Corey
Viewlogic Systems              Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Cary Mandel,
                               (Jon Powell)
VeriBest (Mentor Graphics)     [Ian Dodd]
Via Technologies               (Weber Chuang)
VLSI Technology (Philips)      D.C. Sessions*

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999:
3Dfx Interactive               Ken Wu
Actel Corporation              Silvia Montoya
Alcatel                        Steven Criel
Analytical Edge                Robert Easson
Applied Microelectronics       Brian Sanderson
BMW                            Friedrich Haslinger
Bogatin Enterprise             Eric Bogatin
Bosch Telecom                  Detlef Wolf
Celestica                      Danny Da Silva
Dynamics Research Corporation  Mike Walsh
ECI Telecom                    Daniel Adar
EIA                            [Patti Rusher], Cecilia Fleming*,
                               Dan Heinemeier 
Electronique                   Catherine Gross
EFM Consulting                 Ekkehard Miersch
FCI                            John Ellis
Foxcomm                        Jeff Walden
General DataComm               Laurence Michaels
High Design Technology         Razvan Ene
Hitachi ULSI                   Hideki Fukuda
Infineon                       Thomas Latzel
Intracon Design                Mike Osmond
KAW                            Shinichi Maeda
Litton Systems                 Robert Bremer
Lucent                         Jason Pritchard
Matsushita                     Atsuji Itoh
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella
Newbridge Networks             Bruce Carlile
Oce Printing Systems           Ernst Deiringer
Praegitzer Design              Rick Newell, Paul Galloway, Joe Socha
Rockwell Collins               Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau
Rode Consulting                Chris Rode
Samsung                        Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi
Shindengen                     Tsuyoshi Horigome
Signals & Systems Engineering  Tom Hawkins
STMicroelectronics             Fabrice Boissieres, Philippe LeFevre
Stratus                        Keith Vieira
StorageTek                     Nick Krull
Sun Microsystems               Victor Chang Kevin Ko, Greg Fitzgerald,
                               Nick LaPlaca
Tektronix                      Tom Brinkoetter
Teradyne                       Mikhail Khusid
VDOL                           Robert Novosel
Xilinx                         Susan Wu
(Unaffiliated, Retired)        Bruce Wenniger

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
  
  Date                Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode
  January 14, 2000    (916) 356-9200   5-169351         4378912
  January 31, 2000 - DesignCon 2000 IBIS Summit Meeting (No Bridge)

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Bob Ross started the meeting and stated that there were the required number
of companies present to establish a quorum.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Bob Ross reported that 3Com has officially joined the EIA IBIS Open Forum
making the end of the year membership at 33.

Cecilia Fleming reported that invoices for year 2000 membership have been
mailed.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
Bob Ross corrected the attendee list in the December 3, 1999 Minutes to 
include Fred Ballesteri and not include Bob Haller.  Bob also made some 
format improvements and other minor changes to avoid line wrap in printing.

The December 3, 1999 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes were approved with the
above changes.

The AR's will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
Bob Ross stated that these Minutes contain the final 1999 participation list.
Similarly in any previous year, the last minutes of that year contain the 
participation list for that year.  The next minutes will start a new list
of year 2000 participation.

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Syed Huq reported a Compaq logo update on the Poster and some minor roster
changes on the Poster and IBIS Roster Listing links of the official IBIS
Home page.

Bob Ross reported that DesignCon2000 has a presentation by Syed Huq on
"Solving SI Issues with IBIS Models in High-Speed Applications."

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Bob Ross reported that Jon Powell plans to do some updates to the Models
link of the IBIS Home Page over Christmas vacation.  (Send updates to him at 
the address at the end of the Minutes.)

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Cecilia Fleming is still waiting for word
on the formal ratification of IBIS Version 3.2 as IEC 62104-1.

- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
(IMIC) - Bob Ross had no further report and repeated from last meeting that a
Version 1.2 has been posted for review with a deadline of December 25, 1999.
Note added after the meeting: the link to the document has been moved and is
now located at the bottom of:

  http://tsc.eiaj.or.jp/eds/iopg.htm

- IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation
(formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Jean-Claude
Perrin reported that a document is still in preparation.  He will request
Bob Ross to review it, when available.

- JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross reported that the D.C.
Sessions is the new Chair of JEDEC JC-16 and wants to work closely with the
IBIS Open Forum.

DESIGNCON 2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING
Bob Ross stated that the IBIS Summit meeting is being held on Monday,
January 31, 2000 in Santa Clara, California.  The IBIS Open Forum is listed 
again as an Associate Sponsor of DesignCon 2000 which means that DesignCon
is providing the meeting room and refreshments and also booth space.
National Semiconductor is sponsoring the luncheon.

Milt Schwartz reported that has sent out the first announcement.  He has 
received about 5 responses so far, and about 10 people at the meeting
indicated that they plan to attend.  So it looks like we are on track for 
about 50 participants.  We will send out another notice in early January.

The program is being formed and may (tentatively) include these topics:

  Lynne Green -  "Model Design: Tables and Equations"
  Donald Telium  -  "Input Receiver Modeling"
  Gus Panella -   "Connector Model Specification"
  Bob Haller/Greg Edlund - "Accuracy Specification"
  Stephen Peters - "Discussion on the Future of IBIS"

Jon Powell is handling the IBIS booth and logos.  Also Bob Haller may have
and Accuracy board demonstration.

DATE2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING
Bob Ross reported that Viewlogic has joined Incases and Mentor Graphics as
co-sponsors.

Bob reviewed that the DATE2000 IBIS Summit meeting associated with the
Design Automation and Testing in Europe conference is still planned to be 
held in Paris, France on Friday, March 31, 2000.  The meeting will end early
in the afternoon to allow attendees to fly back that evening. The PCB
Symposium is scheduled for Thursday, March 30, 2000.

COOKBOOK STATUS
Stephen Peters had no report.

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
No new models.

S2IBIS3 PROPOSAL DISCUSSION
Bob Ross opened the discussion by summarizing the previous meeting discussion. 
The question raised was whether the IBIS Open Forum should fund the 
development of a s2ibis3 utility which will compete commercial utilities.  
A decision is needed to before moving forward to get bids on doing the 
project based on the recently issued requirements document.

The s2ibis and s2ibis2 projects were done at North Carolina State University
under DARPA and private funding.  The purpose was to seed the development
of IBIS Models.  The utility was a prototype and was never was intended to be
of commercial quality.  In fact, it was turned over to the IBIS Open Forum
for support since the student developers could not provide the support.
Later in the meeting, Kellee Chrisafulli shared historical background that he 
originally pushed for the idea of a automatic Spice to IBIS translation 
utility in the IBIS Committee that initiated the project.

Bob stated some of the arguments regarding funding advanced at the last 
meeting:

Pro:

  The s2ibis freeware was first and is used by many developers
  The IBIS Open Forum has an obligation to maintain the utility
  This will improve the quality of models since it is widely used
  Freeware does not hurt commercial tools (e.g., Berkeley Spice)
  Helps promote IBIS Version 3.2
  This is really a bug fix project that extends to IBIS Version 3.2

Con:

  We already have rejected a Tektronix proposal with commercial conflicts
  The IBIS Open Forum actually supports commercial solutions
  This may be very expensive
  Active promotion of free tools is bad for commercial tools
  It is not fair to commercial vendors who have already invested the time and
    money, and then to user similar ideas
  The IBIS Committee would be better served to provide enticements to
    commercial vendors to improve their tools

  Also added: 
  The commercial product was introduced at DesignCon99 before the Spice to
    IBIS Committee was formed
  The IBIS Open Forum should have started the program earlier (before the
    commercial announcement)

Bob then asked for any more discussion.  Not all of the points are captured
here.

Kellee Chrisafulli argued that the IBIS Open Forum initiated the s2ibis
projects and that it was appropriate and relevant to advance it.  Furthermore,
he argued that deferring to one vendor's implementation gave that vendor
a monopoly.

Matthew Flora was concerned about the extent that the s2ibis3 committee used
the commercial implementation as the basis of the proposal.  Michael Cohen
clarified that the improvements were made without knowing the details of the
commercial implementation.  However, there was visibility of the IBIS Center 
Utility internal to Intel and the GUI from Cadence.  The main intent was to 
provide bug fixes.

Arpad Muranyi was concerned about any possible patent protection.  Bob did
not think this was a problem.

Stephen Peters was concerned that the project implies rewriting the code
versus just fixing it.   There was more of a flavor of a new project than
just a bug fix.

Raj Raghuran pointed out that the IBIS Open Forum did not actually fund the
original projects.  Kellee indicated that it might have done so if other
funding was not available.  There was some discussion on how s2ibis3
funding is similar or different than ibischk3 funding and whether the s2ibis3
utility is crucial to model development and promoting IBIS Version 3.2.

Ron Werner pointed out that EIA Committees can fund proof of concept tools, 
but should defer to commercial tools.

Arpad argued that the enhancements will give a better tool to the users and
will make the production of better IBIS models possible.  

Kellee and Raj discussed from different points of view that the market for
a commercial s2ibis3 tools is small.  Without the s2ibis3 utility, one vendor
could dominate.  However, because of the small market, a free tool could
stifle any commercial entry.  Commercial competition in even a small market
is possible and healthy.  Bob indicated that some company model development
services provide a different type of commercial competition.

Kellee suggested that the IBIS Home Page provide a link to the commercial
utility.  Bob stated that we do not promote commercial products.  However,
the companies can provide information from Poster page link and also give 
some general descriptions in the Roster page link.

Raj presented the analogy that if the IBIS Open Forum were considering
funding a free reference IBIS Simulator that competed with commercial 
simulators, there would be objection.  A reference simulator would 
"standardize" consistent operation and would be competitive to the higher 
cost commercial solutions that exist.  The relevance and critical need for 
such an IBIS simulator is similar to the s2ibis3 project needs.

Bob clarified that a vote not to fund the work does not prevent non-funded
volunteer work to fix or improve the existing utility and offer it to the
community.

Bob Ross called for a vote on whether the IBIS Open Forum should move forward
and ask for bids on the s2ibis3 development that would require EIA IBIS Open 
Forum funding.

The motion was defeated by a vote of 4 Yes, 7 No and 3 Abstaining.  (The
number of abstentions is corrected to 4 after the meeting.)

Michael Cohen disbanded the s2ibis3 sub-committee and thanked the participants 
for their fine work in drafting the requirements specification.  Others also 
thanked the sub-committee for their work.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW
In the remaining time, Bob Ross invited some further discussion on the 
Connector Specification.  Bob stated that he had become more familiar with the
document, but did not have time to write comments, as previously intended.
Arpad Muranyi had just issued some comments.

Bob provided a document overview.  Out of the 33 pages, about 6 pages are 
devoted to header and syntax rules similar those in the IBIS Standard, 12 
pages describe connector model keywords, and about 15 pages define the
matrices and swath matrix concept.

Bob asked Kellee Chrisafulli to discuss and clarify the swath matrix.  Kellee
indicated that it is intended to provide a more compact, but possibly less 
accurate description based on expanding a small representative section.  The 
connector vendors needed this capability because they did not intend to 
separate models for each of the many pin configurations for each connector.  
Outer edge columns or rows were intended to be simulated with paths
terminated by a specified [Cn_Z] impedance to approximate the surrounding
environment.  

Mike LaBonte commented the [Cn_Grid_Swath] keyword was more general and
eliminated the need for [Cn_Horizontal_Swath] and [Cn_Vertical_Swath]
keywords.  It would help implementors to have fewer choices.  Kellee stated
that there were additional reasons for the other keywords.

Kellee also noted that a complete physical representation of the connector
is possible without using the swath matrix approach.

Arpad Muranyi commented that it would be helpful to have a syntax map
diagram to help sort out the syntax details and rules in the document.

Bob ended the discussion to allow some comments regarding the next Agenda
item.

IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx)
Stephen Peters summarized that there has been recent reflector 
discussion with good ideas.  The range of proposals include formalized
Spice-like language to application program interface (API).  He commented
that he approached the problem by considering a high pin count component from 
a net centric point of view with drivers and receivers on the nets.  With 
such an approach, the enhanced model would handle details including package
details and pin coupling better. 

Arpad Muranyi stated that we need more time to discuss this subject.  Bob Ross
stated that this topic will be moved ahead of the Connector Specification
discussion in the next meeting Agenda.

NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, January 14, 2000 from
8:00 AM to 10:00 AM.

==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-209
            2111 NE 25th Ave. 
            Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Manager, Viewlogic Systems
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010-8437

LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems
            1369 Del Norte Rd.
            Camarillo, CA 93010

WEBMASTER:  Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
            [email-masked]
            Signal Integrity Engineer, Cisco Systems
            170 West Tasman Drive
            San Jose, CA 95134-1706

POSTMASTER: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            114715 N.E. 95th Street
            Redmond, WA 98052
 
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, 
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================