Subject: IBIS Open Forum Minutes 19 Feb 1999

From: Matthew Flora <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:12:11 -0100

DATE: 2/23/99

SUBJECT: 2/19/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes
   
VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
AMP                            (Martin Freedman) 
Applied Simulation Technology  Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui
Cadence Design                 Mike LaBonte
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq*
Compaq                         Bob Haller, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman,
                               Maher Elasad
Cypress                        (Rajesh Manapat)
H.A.S. Electronics             (Haruny Said)
Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.)  Paul Gregory, Henry Wu
High Design Technology         (Razvan Ene)
HyperLynx                      Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli
Incases                        Olaf Rethmeier
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern,
                               Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson, 
                               Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou
LSI Logic (Symbios Logic)      Scott King
Mentor Graphics                Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud
Mitsubishi                     (Tam Cao)
Motorola                       (Ron Werner)
National Semiconductor         Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda
NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Philips Semiconductor          (Todd Andersen)
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Texas Instruments              Jean-Claude Perrin*, Shankar Balasubramaniah,
                               Ramzi Ammar
Thomson-CSF                    (Jean Lebrun)
Viewlogic                      Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh, (Jon Powell)
VeriBest                       Ian Dodd
VLSI Technology                D.C. Sessions*
Zuken-Redac                    (John Berrie) 

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999:
3Dfx Interactive               Ken Wu
Actel Corporation              Silvia Montoya
Applied Microelectronics       Brian Sanderson
Avanti                         Nik Bannov
Bogatin Enterprise             Eric Bogatin
EIA                            Patti Rusher
EMC Corporation                Fabrizio Zanella
IBM                            Greg Edlund*, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel
Fairchild Semiconductor        Peter LaFlamme, Craig Klem
FCI                            John Ellis
Litton Systems                 Robert Bremer
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella
Rockwell Collins               Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau
Samsung                        Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi
Siemens AG                     Bernhard Unger
Signals & Systems Engineering  Tom Hawkins
SiQual                         Scott McMorrow
StorageTek                     Nick Krull
Sun Microsystems               Victor Chang
Tektronix                      Tom Brinkoetter*
Teradyne                       Mikhail Khusid
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky*
Xilinx                         Susan Wu
(Unaffiliatied, Retired)       Bruce Wenniger

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.  Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
  
  Date               Bridge Number     Reservation #    Passcode
  Tuesday, March 9, 1999 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference
  March 26, 1999     Not Yet Available

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Tom Brinkoetter of Tektronix, who had called in last year, joined us for the
IPA 510 discussion.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Bob Ross reported that the annual membership invoices have been sent out.

Also, Philips Semiconductor was an IBIS Member in 1998.  The December 18, 1998 
minutes have been changed to show this membership.  Last year there were 27
IBIS members.  About 33 invoices were sent out this year.  Membership is 
officially established when payment (or purchase order) is received by EIA.

Bob expects several new memberships, including some from participating IBIS 
East companies.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
No corrections.  The ARs will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
Bob Ross reported that the http://pub/ibis/summits/ directories now have all
the uploaded Summit material (from face-to-face meetings) indexed by month/
year of the summit.  Some Summits had no uploadable material.  The minutes for
these summits may be uploaded in the future.

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Syed Huq reported some minor changes to the EIA IBIS web page have been sent
to EIA.  The list of upcoming events has been updated.

Bob Ross reported the EE Times Article "EIAJ Proposes Alternative to IBIS 
Modeling Scheme" in the January 25, 1999 issue of EE Times.  This article 
discusses the IBIS committee relationship with the EIAJ I/O modeling subgroup.
It contains quotes from several IBIS committee participants.

Bob reported that the DesignCon99 brochure listed IBIS as an Associate Sponsor
and had a full page add for the IBIS Open Forum and Booth.

Bob also reported that the presentation "A Tour of the IBIS Accuracy
Specification" by Robert Haller, Peter LaFlamme was presented on Tuesday,
February 2, 1999 at DesignCon99.  This presentation is stored in the IBIS FTP
site accuracy subdirectory:

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/accuracy/desconibis.zip

and is accessible using the Accuracy Info link on the EIA IBIS home page.

Bob reported that a presentation last year at DesignCon98 by Jon Powell and
Chuck Berman titled "Creating Signal Integrity Models from Physical
Measurement" appeared on pages 22-27 of the Hewlett-Packard publication
Insite, Volume 4, Issue 1, 1999.

Bob reported that Arpad Muranyi is teaching a session on "Introduction to IBIS
Models" at the Circuit Simulation and Signal Integrity in Microelectronic
Circuits and Systems tutorial short course.  Also Tim Schreyer will teach
"High Speed Interconnect Design".

Finally, EDN Magazine has an EDN on Signal Integrity section which contains
several links with IBIS content including "IBIS Links and Information":

  http://www.ednmag.com/special/si.cfm

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Bob Ross reported that Philips Semiconductor has IBIS model links:

  http://www.philipslogic.com/products/pc/
  http://www.philipslogic.com/support/ibis/

Bob also reported that Hyundai Electronics has IBIS models (registration is
required):

  http://kcs.hei.co.kr/models/model/model.html

The International Microelectronics FTP link now contains directly downloadable
IBIS models (without the need for a password):

  ftp://ftp13.ba.best.com/pub/imiweb8/ibis/

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
Bob Ross - Payment of Atul for parser development $4168
Bob Ross - Bug34 - No Error Reported for Missing V/I Table in Output Buffers
           (not covered)

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - Bob Ross repeated a previous report that
  IEC has circulated IBIS Version 2.1 on November 6, 1998.  The Committee
  Draft for Vote (CDV) closes ballot on April 15, 1999.

- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
  (IMIC) - Bob Ross reported that Dr. Hideki Fukuda held an EIAJ I/O Project
  Group meeting on January 12, 1999.  The group discussed a relationship
  with IBIS, and almost all of the members wanted to cooperate with IBIS and
  reach a merger of IBIS and IMIC.  They decided to make a group to discuss
  the issues of the relationship with IBIS.  Another topic of the meeting was
  EMI.  They will tackle the problem of applying IMIC to EMI analysis.  Some
  of this information was also discussed at the IBIS Summit Meeting on
  February 1, 1999.

- IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - Jean-Claude Perrin reported that he
  plans an Experts meeting in March in preparation for a Working Group
  meeting later.  A presentation is planned, but some software checking will
  be needed.  Jean-Claude may not be able to attend the DATE99 IBIS Summit,
  but he expects someone from his group to attend.  Jean-Claude will contact
  Bob Ross off-line concerning details of the presentation.

- JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross reported that D.C.
  Sessions reported on the reflector that a JEDEC standard now has
  requirements that IBIS Version 3.2 may not be able to handle.  Stephen
  Peters and Kellee Crisafulli responded that [Model Selector] could be used.
  However, D.C. stated that this could produce too many models.  Arpad
  Muranyi stated that some extension to IBIS such as equation based models
  might be used for such situations.  Bob stated that this discussion needs to
  be deferred to a later time.  This functionality could be a candidate for
  IBIS Version 4.x extensions - consistent with other input extensions.

  D.C. stated, as previously reported, that he is Chair of a JEDEC sub-group
  to standardize on a generic IBIS Model for double data rate SDRAM electrical
  characterization.  D.C. is looking for IBIS members to help out.  Contact
  D.C. at [email-masked] if you are interested.

- IEEE P1537 Electronic Data Format Project (Previously listed as the Standard
  Component Data Sheet) - Stephen Peters had no further report.

IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS
Greg Edlund reported that the IBIS User Group will be holding teleconference
meetings.  Each meeting is planned to be on Friday of the week following, and
at the same time of day as, the IBIS Open Forum meeting.  The first one is
scheduled for Friday, February 26, 1999 from 8 AM to 10 AM PST.

Greg stated that about one hour will be devoted to Accuracy Committee issues,
and Ed Sayre will be using the other hour for a general IBIS East meeting.
The agenda and meeting contact details will be sent out after the IBIS
Open Forum Meeting on the [email-masked] reflector.  Greg expects to send
out meeting minutes on that reflector.

Bob Ross reported that Mentor Graphics is hosting the meeting and providing
the dial-in number and password information for these minutes:

                                  Bridge               Access Code
  Friday Feb. 26, 8 AM to 10 AM:  1-608-250-9675       734362

Bob noted that the DesignCon99 presentation has been uploaded to the FTP
site.  It is accessible directly and through the Accuracy link noted above.

Bob also noted that the Connector activity will be covered as a separate
group and working directly with the IBIS Open Forum.  Some documents have been
uploaded at a new "connector" subdirectory on the IBIS FTP site:

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/

DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1999 SUMMIT REVIEW
Bob Ross called for feedback on the February 1, 1999 IBIS Summit meeting.
Matthew Flora stated it was a good meeting and that much of the material
should provide new BIRDs for enhancing IBIS.  Bob noted that typically some
IBIS Summit material in the past has seeded actual specification advances.
Bob thanked National Semiconductor for hosting the lunch, and Milt Schwartz
for helping in the meeting logistics and in copying the presentations.

Bob commented that the Booth went well and again thanked Viewlogic for 
providing the backdrop and Jon Powell for handling the logos and other 
details.  Jon is currently in possession and is storing the logo placards for
later use.

Bob also commented that he expects to see the DesignCon99 problems concerning
the proceedings and lack of room for many High Performance System Design
sessions to be resolved next year.

Bob expects that the IBIS Open Forum will be an Associate Sponsor again next
year.

DATE99 MARCH 9, 1999 SUMMIT MEETING
Bob Ross noted that information has been sent out on the IBIS Summit meeting
associated with the DATE99 conference in Munich, Germany.  The IBIS meeting is
scheduled for Tuesday, March 9, 1999 at the Hotel below:
   
  ASTRON HOTEL/Neue Messe
  Eggenfeldener Strasse 100
  Munich, Germany 

Lunch, provided to all participants, will start at 12 Noon, and the meeting is
expected to start at 1:00 PM.  The date was chosen to avoid conflicting with
the trade show portion of DATE99 held Wednesday through Friday.  The Noon
starting time will allow some people to fly in that morning.  Mentor Graphics,
INCASES, High Design Technology are co-sponsoring the IBIS Summit Meeting.

INCASES has sent out a press release in Europe concerning the meeting.  Bob
listed the tentative agenda:

  12:00:  LUNCH (Provided to all participants)

  13:00 - 18:00 MEETING

    Current IBIS Activities and Issues
      Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics

    Detecting Typical Bugs in IBIS Models
      Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering

    Validation of IBIS Based Two Waveform Behavioral Models
      Bernhard Unger, Siemens AG

    IBIS Version 3.2 Update
      Stephen Peters, Intel

    BREAK

    IBIS Management and CHECK at Siemens ICN
      Gerald Bannert, Siemens

    DOGEN, An Internal Model Library Management Tool
      Hans Pichlmaier, Siemens

    General Questions and Discussions
      - IBIS Interpretation

    IBIS Future Requirements
      Stephen Peters, Intel

    Future Requirements on Frequency Dependent Package and MCM Modeling
    (Tentative)
      Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering

    General Questions and Discussions
      - Future Requirements
      - Any other topic of interest

    Ad-hoc Presentations

Another flyer will be sent out early next week.  The Agenda will be sent out
one week in advance.

Presenters are requested to send electronic copies of their presentations to
[email-masked] for copying by February 26, 1999 or earlier.
Otherwise plan to bring 50 copies for the meeting.  Stephen Peters reported
problems with this address, and Bob will handle this offline.  (Stephen
successfully sent his presentations.)  Bob noted that some of the
presentations may be uploaded under a Mar99 subdirectory before the meeting.

IBIS VERSION 3.2 EIA STANDARD PREPARATIONS
Bob Ross stated that IBIS Version 3.2 had been ratified at the January 15,
1999 meeting and the ARs for it had been completed.

The revised document was uploaded at

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ver3.2/ver3_2.ibs

Patti Rusher supplied a link to Bob regarding an example of a JEDEC document
that is downloadable and subject to electronic balloting.  Bob plans to have
an electronic balloting mechanism set up for ratification of IBIS Version 3.2
as ANSI/EIA-656A.  However, Bob is not aware that anything has been set up
yet.

IBISCHK3 VERSION 3.2.2 AND VERSION 3.2.3
Bob Ross reported that the ibischk3 Version 3.2.2 and Version 3.2.3 have been
distributed to the companies supporting the parser development.  The
executables for ibischk3 version 3.2.2 have been uploaded.

Several issues came up.  Atul Agarwal asked if the old ibis_chk executable for
Version 1.1 should be split off.  He gave the options of deleting it from
ibischk3, accessing it by a switch, or keep as is (autodetect Version 1.1
level files to invoke the ibis_chk code.  Bob favored keeping ibischk3 as is.

Bob also noted that it was reported that the hp10 executable did not properly
handle the IBIS Version 3.2 extension on the number of characters allowed in
file names when the file name had more than 8 characters.  ibischk3 worked
fine for Sun UNIX and Windows operating systems.  Matthew Flora stated that he
tracked the location where the error is being generated.  He will work with
Chris Rokusek (and Atul) for more clarification and testing.

Bob raised the new agenda item for approving payment to Atul Agarwal.  Bob
reported that Atul had performed work beyond the scope of the work leading
to ibischk3 Version 3.1.0.  He had been paid for the original work.  The work
for the extensions to ibischk3 Version 3.2.3 had to deal with some significant
additions associate with 10 BIRDs (including the new [Submodel] mechanism)
and many BUG reports.  He had done the extension based on an agreement that
he would be compensated at a later time.  The amount of work adds up to
$4168.00.  Bob felt that that was a fair amount and called for a vote to
authorize the EIA to pay for this when the formal invoice from Atul is
received.

Payment authorization to Atul Agarwal was approved by unanimous vote.

Matthew Flora questioned whether this was a vote to ratify the parser.  Bob
stated that the parser still had the hp10 bug above, but suggested that the
ratification vote be held at the next scheduled teleconference meeting
(scheduled March 26, 1999).  Bob expects that more work and revisions will
be done to the parser as problems are reported, but it is sufficiently stable
for ratification.

Michael Cohen questioned whether ibischk3 included other versions of the 
parser.  Bob Ross and others responded that ibischk3 is also referred as a
parser, and it contains the functionality of IBIS Version 2.1 and IBIS
Version 1.1 testing within the ibischk3 executable.  Executables are available
off of the IBIS FTP site, but source code is issued only to those companies
who are funding the project.  These companies have the benefit of the first
release, and executables are not always produced for each release.

TEKTRONIX IPA 510 SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION PROPOSAL
The remainer of the meeting was devoted to the Tektronix IPA 510 software
distribution proposal.  In order to deal with this topic, Bob Ross stated that
we would follow Syed Huq's private suggestion using the sequence below:

  Briefly introduce the background and proposal
  Hear arguments favoring the proposal
  Hear arguments opposing the proposal
  Open the meeting to discussion and more arguments
  Conduct a vote
  
Bob stated that the issue will be decided by majority vote of the official
IBIS members at the meeting.  Bob had not received notification of any new 
members.  If there were a tie vote, the issue would be brought up the next 
teleconference for more discussion and another vote. 

Bob started by presenting the background.  At the November 6, 1998
teleconference meeting Tektronix had proposed a free transfer to the IBIS Open
Forum of the IPA 510 software product for parameter extraction based on time
domain reflectometry measurements.  The Forum would distribute both the 
executable and source code and provide support.  Tektronix would retain the
right to sell products based on this code or derivatives of it.  The source
code would be distributed only to people agreeing to provide back to the IBIS
Open Forum the source code with any enhancements based on the code.  After
extensive discussion, the IBIS Open Forum approved distributing only the
executable code, but had to resolve a few questions and needed refinement of
the agreement before agreeing to distribute the source code.

While in pursuit of some of these questions, a few objections were raised.
The fundamental concern was whether it was appropriate for the IBIS Open Forum
to distribute this software.  This was discussed again at the November 20, 1998 
meeting.  The resolution was to continue discussion.  At the January 15, 1999
meeting, the issue was again discussed.  A vote was conducted with split
resolution just as the meeting time was running out.  Since these subsequent 
discussions were cut short because of other IBIS business or conducted under 
time pressure, we decided to raise the issue again at the February 19, 1999 
meeting and schedule enough time for full discussion and resolution.

Bob noted that there were no known barriers to accepting the proposal.  The
FTP site could be used for code distribution.  The EIA legal department had
given its approval.  At least one person was identified to handle the source
code distribution.  We could develop appropriate processes for source code
distribution and control.  The executable was dongle-free, and documentation
was included. in the product.  In addition, Syed had investigated some other
alternatives for source code distribution, but these did not look promising.

Syed and Matthew Flora suggested that the issue first be constrained to only
dealing with distribution of the executable.  Bob agreed, although he
expressed concern that one fundamental motivation for discussing the proposal
was to make the source code available for improvement.

Tom Brinkoetter discussed again why Tektronix was making the offer.  Tektronix 
has discontinued the IPA 510 hardware and software product and no longer can
provide support.  In order to help the existing user community, Tektronix is
interested in offering the product to the IBIS Open Forum and to help develop
a self-supporting user community.

Tom responded to a number of questions before having to leave for another
committment.  Stephen Peters questioned why the product could not just be
offered from a Tektronix web site, and Tom responded that the Tektronix logo
and location would convey implicit support.  Tom clarified Bob's understanding
that, the current product executable operates only on Windows 3.1 and
Windows 95.  It does not work on Windows NT.  

During the discussion, Bob read parts of the agreement for clarification.

The arguments in favor of and against the proposal were presented by everyone
and do not necessarily represent one's overall support or opposition to the
proposal.  Some are paraphrased to capture the essence.

The arguments in favor:

  1.  Syed stated that the IPA 510 was a widely used tool.  He found it  
      relevant to IBIS for developing measurement based IBIS models.  It was 
      particularly useful for VT tables and for extracting the capacitance 
      information.  
      
  2.  Syed also stated that the support would be through voluntary effort 
      similar to the support done for s2ibis.  It would not be a burden on
      the IBIS Open Forum.  Milt Schwartz reaffirmed this position.
  
  3.  Raj Raghuram indicated that this could be considered a free tool similar
      to s2ibis.

  4.  Matthew Flora argued that offering the utility had a positive effect on
      the market.  Free utilities did not detract from commercial operations.
      (Examples could be Berkeley Spice versus commercial Spice, or free
      linux versus commercial linux.)  Later it was argued that the free
      utility sets the "base-line" or level of expectation for commercial 
      utilities.

  5.  Milt and Bob indicated that having the utility available would be a
      factor in educating the community on TDR and parameter extraction
      technology.
  
  6.  Greg Edlund also supported the TDR method as the simpler method for
      package model parameter extraction.

  7.  Later Syed argued that the executable itself would become obsolete
      within about two years as Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 systems were
      phased out.
      
Arguments in opposition:  

  1.  Stephen Peters was concerned that the IBIS Forum should not be 
      responsible for distributing a product that competed with potential
      commercial products.  It could undercut commercial attempts.  Some
      discussion occurred that the other free utilities were issued when there
      were no commercial alternatives.
      
  2.  Stephen felt Tektronix should take direct responsibility in distributing
      the executable.
      
  3.  Bob cited a top level concern that the executable, unlike other free
      utilities, was not directly related to IBIS.

  4.  Bob was concerned that EIA and IBIS are industry funded organizations 
      with high involvement with vendor-neutral standards development.  IBIS
      should avoid situations which may favor one commercial venture over 
      another.  Distributing the utility risked having the IBIS Forum loose
      credibility by intruding into the commercial arena.
      
  5.  Dima Symolansky argued that substantial support was needed for potential
      bugs and technical issues.  So rather than seeding the market, a bad
      experience with a free utility could discourage one from investigating
      a commercial alternative.
      
  6.  Bob felt that the support could be inadequate since better support of a
      product is available from a commercial organization where funding is
      involved (such as with ibischk3)

Raj asked whether under the transfer agreement, the executable could be
used in a commercial product (such as with a wrapper around it).  This was
discussed.  Bob thought it was permissible, but was not sure.  Others thought
it might not be technically practical.

Additional discussions and clarifications occurred and some other arguments may
have been presented, but not captured.  Upon completion, Bob called for a
vote.

The Tektronix proposal to have the IBIS Open Forum distribute the executable
code was rejected by a 4 NO to 3 YES vote.

It was determined that no other issues needed to be discussed regarding the
Tektronix proposal.  The meeting was concluded as time ran out.

COOKBOOK STATUS
(Not Discussed)

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
(Not Discussed)  The old AR remains.

AR - Matthew Flora to issue to the IBIS reflector a short write-up on the IBIS
Model Review Committee.

OLD TOPIC - BIRD56 - RELAXATION OF THE [Series Pin Mapping] RESTRICTION
(Not discussed)  The old AR remains.

AR - Arpad Muranyi provide an IBIS model example for BIRD56.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW
(Not Discussed)

ACCURACY SPECIFICATION REVIEW
(Not Discussed)

BUG34 - NO ERROR REPORTED FOR MISSING V/I TABLE IN OUTPUT BUFFERS
This new item was not discussed.

NEXT MEETING:
The next meeting will be an IBIS Summit Meeting at DATE99 from 12 PM to 
to 6 PM on Tuesday, March 9, 1999 at the Astron Hotel in Munich, Germany.

The following teleconference meeting will be on Friday, March 26, 1999 from
8:00 AM to 10:00 AM.
==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-56
            2111 NE 25th Ave. 
            Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            17641 NE 67th Court
            Redmond, WA 98052

LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems (formerly Quad Design)
            1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
 
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, 
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eia.org

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================

---

From: Kellee Crisafulli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:44:16 -0800

Update on IBIS connector sub-group activities.

  At the presentation at DesignCon99 earlier this month
we had a few questions come up.  Most notable were the following:

1) The documentation about the type of matrix data needs a better
   description.  We agreed to add more documentation in this area:
   We have not completed this A.I. yet.

2) There is no way to describe lossy R,L,C,G effects.
   The sub-group responded by saying we had considered it but felt
   is was too complex to include in the first version of the specification.
   We agreed to reopen this for discussion in the sub-group.
   See below for details.

We have not gotten the full connector sub-group back together 
since DesignCon but we plan to do so next week.  I felt we owed
an update since we have not reported back on the IBIS meeting
inputs.

Please feel free to forward any comments for the connector 
sub-group to me.  We are very interested in creating a standard
that works for the majority of users.

In the mean time we had a discussion between Teradyne
and HyperLynx Electromagnetic guru's and begun discussions of
methods to describe lossy information in the specification.

HyperLynx-Teradyne meeting summary:
1) How do we describe the 3 major types of resistive loss
across frequency (R matrix).  General methods in use today only focus
on one or two and require geometric data as input.
2) How do we describe L,C frequency effects
3) How do we describe dielectric loss v.s. frequency (G matrix).

We discussed several methods and agreed that a full loss model
was very complex.  We determined 3 possible courses of action:
1) Continue without loss in the first release (follow up later)
2) Create a very simplified loss method for the first release
3) Continue discussions until a full featured loss model is found.

It was mentioned several times that because connectors are very short
typically less than an inch the loss with todays uses is very small
and we could probably get by without including loss until the next release.
It was also mentioned that acquiring the data from real connector models
to describe several aspects of loss is very difficult.
We also discussed the possibility of using the IBIS connector model for
doing cable models.

We will be discussing these options in the next connector sub-group meeting
and report our suggestions at that time to the full IBIS group.
We want to give serious consideration for method a simplified model at
that time.
More of the meeting details will be sent from Mikhail at Teradyne
to sub-committee along with a first cut at the proposed simplified loss model.

Kellee

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Have a great day....
Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx
SI,EMC,X-talk and IBIS tools for the Windows platform
E-mail: <mailto:[email-masked]>
web:    <http://www.hyperlynx.com>
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From: Scott McMorrow <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:45:21 -0800

Kellee,

It is in the area of extending the model for use with packages (which can be
quite lossy), cables (which do have significant losses), and pcboard traces
(as an extension to the current ebd non-lossless model) that some
sort of frequency dependent loss model is needed.  The Hspice W-element
model with a frequency dependent dielectric and skin effect loss is generally
good to the 1 to 2 GHz range, within a small margin of error.  Yes, there are
frequency dependent changes in L and C, however, they are quite small
in the frequency ranges where IBIS simulations are generally run.

AC losses are a significant factor in real systems with sub-400ps edge rates,
and high frequencies.  I see these effects in source synchronous bus simulations
in the 200 to 400MHz range, where the edge rate harmonics approach 1.5 to
2 GHz.  They significantly effect noise margins and timing of high speed signals,
and
definitely effect the eye patterns of fiber channel and gigabit ethernet signals.

I would suggest that the committee take the lead and define an extensible method
of describing ac losses.  One that could be enhanced by different methods of
modeling
in the future.  For example, using the current matrix models that you have for
lossless transmission line sections, you could easily extend this to an RLGC
matrix
with an Rs, which is the frequency dependent skin effect resistance, and Gd, which

is the frequency dependent dielectric loss.  Other, possibly more advanced,
modeling
types could be included in the standard in the future.

I agree that, in general, ac losses are insignificant for most connectors.
However, if
we are creating a coupled matrix template to be used in other areas, as I have
suggested above, then it makes sense to consider inclusion of frequency dependent
losses in this standard.  Otherwise, it will be years before the chance will occur
again.

If we think of this as a way to enhance ebd and package modeling, then I believe
adding ac losses to the coupled matrix descriptions makes undeniable sense.

If you don't beleive, then try to correlate a 400MHz memory bus simulation to
measurements using an IBIS simulator with currentebd models of the RIMM modules.
It can't be done.

Regards,

Scott