Subject: IBIS Open Forum Minutes 16 Apr 1999

From: Matthew Flora <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:22:08 +0000

DATE: 4/19/99

SUBJECT: 4/16/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
AMP                            (Martin Freedman) 
Applied Simulation Technology  Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui, Neven Orhanovic
Avanti                         Nikolai Bannov
Cadence Design                 Mike LaBonte
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq
Compaq                         Bob Haller*, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman,
                               Maher Elasad
Cypress                        (Rajesh Manapat)
EMC Corporation                Fabrizio Zanella
Fairchild Semiconductor        Peter LaFlamme, Craig Klem
H.A.S. Electronics             (Haruny Said)
Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.)  Paul Gregory, Henry Wu
High Design Technology         Razvan Ene
HyperLynx                      Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli
IBM                            Greg Edlund, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel
Incases                        Olaf Rethmeier, Werner Rissiek, David Eagles,
                               Wilhelm Arnoldi, Ulrich Losch
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern,
                               Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson*, 
                               Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou
LSI Logic (Symbios Logic)      Scott King
Mentor Graphics                Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud, Sherif Hammad,
                               Jean Oudinot, Markku Kukkanen, Martin Groeber,
                               Karine Loudet
Mitsubishi                     (Tam Cao)
Motorola                       (Ron Werner)
National Semiconductor         Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda
NEC                            (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Philips Semiconductor          Todd Andersen, Peter Christiaans
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
SiQual                         Scott McMorrow
Texas Instruments              Jean-Claude Perrin, Shankar Balasubramaniah,
                               Ramzi Ammar
Thomson-CSF                    (Jean Lebrun)
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky
Viewlogic                      Chris Rokusek*, Guy de Burgh, Cary Mandel,
                               (Jon Powell)
VeriBest                       Ian Dodd*
VLSI Technology                D.C. Sessions*
Zuken-Redac                    (John Berrie) 

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999:
3Dfx Interactive               Ken Wu
Actel Corporation              Silvia Montoya
Alcatel                        Steven Criel
Analytical Edge                Robert Easson
Applied Microelectronics       Brian Sanderson
BMW                            Friedrich Haslinger
Bogatin Enterprise             Eric Bogatin
Bosch Telecom                  Detlef Wolf
ECI Telecom                    Daniel Adar
EIA                            [Patti Rusher], Cecilia Fleming*,
                               Dan Heinemeier* 
Electronique                   Catherine Gross
EFM Consulting                 Ekkehard Miersch
Intracon Design                Mike Osmond
FCI                            John Ellis
Litton Systems                 Robert Bremer
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella
Nortel Networks (& Viewlogic)  Martin Hall
Oce Printing Systems           Ernst Deiringer
Rockwell Collins               Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau
Samsung                        Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi
Siemens                        Bernhard Unger, Christian Mitschke, 
                               Manfred Maurer, Peter Kaiser, Wolfram Meyer,
                               Gerald Bannert, Harmut Ibowski, Katja Zuleeg,
                               Hans Pichlmaier, Eckhard Lenski, Kortheuer Udo,
                               Christian Sporrer
Signals & Systems Engineering  Tom Hawkins
STMicroelectronics             Fabrice Boissieres, Philippe LeFevre
StorageTek                     Nick Krull
Sun Microsystems               Victor Chang
Tektronix                      Tom Brinkoetter
Teradyne                       Mikhail Khusid
VDOL                           Robert Novosel
Xilinx                         Susan Wu
(Unaffiliatied, Retired)       Bruce Wenniger

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
  
  Date               Bridge Number     Reservation #    Passcode
  May 7, 1999        (916) 356-9200    8-12113          4759231
  May 28, 1999       (916) 356-9200    8-12114          2274622

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas out 
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.  
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will 
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------

INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Dan Heinemeier and Cecilia Fleming of EIA called.  Dan has been with EIA for
18 years and is currently a Vice President of the Government Sector and of
the EIG organization under which IBIS resides.  Cecilia has been with EIA
for 15 years in the Engineering Department and heads several outside
committees.  She has been involved with several national standards efforts
and is currently helping with the EIA Web page updates.  Cecilia will be
the primary EIA contact for the EIA IBIS Open Forum. 

Patti Rusher is no longer with EIA.  The committee voted by acclamation to
officially thank Patti for her years of service and support to the IBIS Open
Forum.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Bob Ross reported that there are 21 Official members so far this year.  He is
now tracking down about 12 or so other invoices.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
No corrections were made to the minutes.

The ARs will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
None

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Cecilia Fleming reported on a number of Web Page updates submitted by Syed
Huq.  They include updated listings for Upcoming Events through February 2000,
and a link to a .pdf version of IBIS Version 3.2.  Also Bob Ross noted that
the roster has been updated and the recommendation note that ibischk3 be used
for IBIS model checking has been added.

Cecilia also noted that she is working with Syed so Syed can directly FTP
documents to the EIA site.

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Kerry Nelson announced that some new Intel Version 3.1 Level IBIS models are
available for the Pentium II and Pentium II/Pentium III/Xeon at:

  http://developer.intel.com/design/PentiumII/devtools/Index.htm

  http://developer.intel.com/design/PentiumII/xeon/devtools/Index.htm

  http://developer.intel.com/design/PentiumIII/xeon/devtools/Index.htm

Bob Ross noted that AGP models are at a new location:

  http://www.agpforum.org/specs_specs.htm

Bob reported that the Siemens models are under a new link for Infineon 
Technologies:

  http://www.infineon.com/products/ics/31/3177.htm

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None, although some new topic discussion occurred at the end of the meeting.

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - Bob Ross noted that the Committee Draft for
  Vote (CDV) at IEC closed on April 15, 1999.  If that is successful, the
  next milestone for formal ratification is the draft for Draft International
  Standard (ADIS) phase.  Cecilia Fleming will check the outcome of the CDV
  ballot through the appropriate EIA internal contact.
  
- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
  (IMIC) - Raj Raghuram had not further status.  Bob Ross still has not
  heard anything regarding the planned March 22, 1999 Nikkei Electronics IBIS 
  and IMIC article.  More discussion on IBIS and IMIC occurred later in the 
  meeting.

- IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - Bob Ross talked about some
  preliminary documentation he received from Jean-Claude Perrin, Chair of the
  Working Group under IEC.  The working group consists of members of the 
  French standards organization Union Technique de L'Electricite (UTE) and 
  also some representatives of national bodies.  The documentation consists of 
  a description, a proposed Section 10 of IBIS, an example and some results.
  Bob believes that the group still wants to gather internal comments and
  validate further the ideas before releasing them outside of the
  subcommittee.

  Bob summarized the proposal stating that Section 10, Electromagnetic Fields
  Computation, introduces 5 new keywords: [Core Current], [Pad Current], [Die
  Size], [Pad Clock] and [Clock Frequency].  The proposal shows how these
  keywords along with existing IBIS keywords are used for EMI field
  calculations.  Bob is seeking permission to upload this material at an
  appropriate time.
  
- JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - D.C. Session noted that he is
  serving as a liaison with the IBIS committee and the JEDEC subcommittee.
  A group is working on a strawman IBIS specification for standardizing the
  characteristics of double data-rate SDRAMs.  Cecilia Fleming was interested
  in the actual work item number of the activity, and she and D.C. will work
  off-line to get it.  D.C. asked that people interested in helping to review
  the results contact him.  Bob Ross volunteered.

IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS
Bob Haller stated that the Scheduled April 9, 1999 meeting was not held
since some participants were not available that day.  The next meeting is
scheduled on Friday, April 30.  The delay will give more time to review the
latest changes in the proposed Accuracy Specification.  Bob Ross noted that
the changes include adding the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform]
keywords and also a revision of the defined correlation levels.

Later in the meeting Arpad Muranyi stated that he is still checking on 
whether he can provide his set of IBIS materials for the IBIS course he
is teaching on April 19-21, 1999 in Phoenix, Arizona as part of the set of
tutorials of the Circuit Simulation and Signal Integrity in Microelectronic 
Circuits short course.  Bob Ross and Kerry Nelson noted that the course was
very informative.

IBIS SUMMIT AT DESIGN AUTOMATION CONFERENCE
Bob Ross discussed the planning for the next IBIS Summit meeting associated
with the Design Automation Conference (DAC).  This year the DAC is being
held in New Orleans, LA at the Ernst M. Morial Convention Center.  The IBIS
Summit Meeting is being planned for Monday, June 21, 1999 at the adjacent
Hilton - New Orleans Rivers.  Normally we hold the meetings on Thursday, after
the trade show, but this year because of the later dates and personal 
schedule conflicts, we are planning for Monday.  Also Monday is a free day at
DAC.  Raj Raghuram added that the free show extends into the evening.  While 
we are scheduling a full day, Bob mentioned that we typically end in the 
early afternoon.

Bob stated that the main business is to elect EIA IBIS Open Forum officers.
He expected several presentations on our current activities and plans.  Arpad
Muranyi stated that he might present some new ideas related to equation
based modeling.  Raj indicated that Dr. Norio Matsui may also present the
current status on IMIC.  Bob asked from the people on the conference call who
might be attending, and got about a half dozen or so positive responses.
Typically the meeting draws about 25 people.

Bob called for a vote on holding the meeting on Monday, June 21, 1999.  This
was approved by unanimous vote.

Cecilia Fleming has made the reservations and will now work with Bob to
finalize the contract and meeting details.  Bob plans for classroom seating
and an overhead projector.  Cecilia will handle the morning and afternoon
refreshments and arrange for a lunch in the meeting room (free to
participants).

Bob noted that Matthew Flora will handle the sign-ups for the meeting.  Some
details are already on the Upcoming Events link on the EIA IBIS home page.
Matthew can be contacted at [email-masked] or (425) 869-2320.

IBIS VERSION 3.2 EIA STANDARD PREPARATIONS
Cecilia Fleming indicated that she will be initiating the official ANSI
voting process.  She stated that ANSI requires a 60 day voting period.  As
voted on the January 15, 1999 meeting, IBIS Version 3.2 will be forwarded
for vote as ANSI/EIA-656A.  This is an amendment to the current ANSI/EIA-656.
Cecilia will work on the letter ballot form, the link to the standard, and
the appropriate formal announcement for vote.

Bob expected the IBIS Open Forum will provide at least one official comment
related to BIRD 58 discussions later.  Editorial comments and corrections will
continue to be welcome.

Later, Michael Cohen commented on the value of Arpad Muranyi's .pdf format of 
IBIS located at:  

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ver3.2/ver3_2.pdf

Michael noted that the [Voltage Range] keyword was still missing in the
table of contents.  [Arpad fixed this and the revised document is now
uploaded.]  

Michael stated that this, along with the ibischk3 parser was among the most
useful material on the Web site and moved that Arpad be officially thanked for 
his valuable contribution.  This was so voted by acclamation.

IBISCHK3 VERSION 3.2.2 - VERSION 3.2.5
Bob Ross announced that executables for the released version of ibischk3
Version 3.2.5 have been uploaded to

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibischk3.2/

Old executables are temporarily stored at

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibischk3.2_old/

This directory will be deleted in the future.

Bob thanked Chris Rokusek for compiling the Unix executables, Syed Huq for the
Linux executables, and Matthew Flora for the Windows executable and source
code distribution.

Bob called for a vote that this executable be the official release executable.
Michael Cohen asked if there were any outstanding bugs, and Bob noted that
BUG34 was still open.  It was an enhancement which we decided to defer.  It
will be discussed later.

The official release was approved by unanimous vote.

Bob noted that more bugs may be found as we use the parser.  We can do
subsequent updates.  Matthew Flora commented that he has been holding back on 
a number of minor bugs that he has encountered.  Both he an Chris Rokusek
know the code and can deal with many of these problems.  Matthew asked if
we should still be submitting bugs to the ibischk-bug reflector for Atul
Agarwal to fix.  After some discussion on the issue, Bob summarized the
position that many of the minor bugs can be fixed by both Matthew Flora and
Chris Rokusek.  We should not involve Atul in these at this time.  We can
still involve him to help fix any problem related to the work that he did.
Also, we should continue to keep Atul in the loop with any source code updates
that we do.  We will probably continue to use Atul for major upgrade projects,
but they need to be approved by the IBIS Open Forum.

COOKBOOK STATUS
Stephen Peters had no status.  However, a cookbook update was part of a later
discussion.

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
Matthew Flora indicated no further activity.

VREF, RREF, VMEAS DISCUSSION
Bob Ross opened the discussion that this was a continuation from the last
meeting as we ran out of time.  Michael Cohen restated that he has seen,
in his role as a librarian, many models where the Vref, Rref, and Vmeas were
missing or unrealistic.  Several people had various comments.  These 
subparameters are different from the actual V_fixture and R_fixture values
for waveform tables.  Michael also stated that he has seen independent models
with different Vmeas values for rising and falling responses.  (This is
discussed later.)

Stephen Peters will supply a brief description to the IBIS reflector on this
subject.  Stephen will also consider expanding the Cookbook discussion.

DUAL-DRIVE MODELING
Bob Ross added this topic based on some reflector discussion.  Both Chris 
Rokusek and D.C. Sessions believed that this technology could be handled by
current IBIS Version 3.2 keywords.  In response to a comment, Bob added that
he believed that the mechanism was feedback based.  The driver impedance
starts low but then switches to a higher impedance such as 50 ohms to provide
a good source termination.  The potential benefit is a strong drive, but low
noise.  This could be handled using the [Bus Hold] keyword.  D.C. noted that
he rejected the feedback approach because it can be unstable.

BUG34 - NO ERROR REPORTED FOR MISSING V/I TABLE IN OUTPUT BUFFERS
As stated previously, Bob Ross noted that BUG34 is still open.  Matthew Flora
still needs to provide a revision per AR that states the conditions under
which the warning messages will be issued.

AR - Matthew Flora issue a revised BUG34 to document the conditions where
Warning messages are issued.

Bob again noted that this BUG34 was an enhancement that we deferred until
after the ibischk3 Version 3.2.5 release because it has always existed and
because it would have taken work to figure out a solution.  Bob repeated from
previous discussion that this fix would not capture such pathological cases
such as 0 current in both tables.

As part of this discussion, Milt Schwartz commented that he also uses s2iplt
from North Carolina State University.  He is now becoming familiar with the
characteristics of various technologies.  He also asked if anyone needed to
do a quick scan of IBIS models.  Several people including Bob, Michael Cohen
and Matthew stated that this was essential.

BIRD58 - DRIVER SCHEDULE KEYWORD CLARIFICATION
Bob Ross stated that the planned discussion on BIRD58.1 is deferred until
Arpad Muranyi has time to issue BIRD58.1 which captured the thoughts of the
last meeting and of the e-mail discussion.

Matthew Flora commented on the confusion and on the pathological case of
having a [Driver Schedule] model with all NA delay entries.  In fact only five
combinations are allowed.  The allowed conditions could be stated in the
document.  Matthew noted that if all NA's were disallowed, then a test in
ibischk3 could be added.

CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW
Matthew Flora stated that he thought that Kellee Crisafulli and the Connector 
Committee were still meeting, but had no further update.  Bob Ross noted that 
the documents have been uploaded at:                               

  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connectors/

Matthew stated that he could upload some example files from the CD-ROM given
out by Kellee at the January 1999 IBIS summit.

ACCURACY SPECIFICATION REVIEW
Bob Ross stated, as previously noted, the IBIS Users Group Accuracy Committee 
is reviewing an updated version of this document.

IMIC AND IBIS
In the remaining time the meeting was opened to some unscheduled topics.  Bob
introduced the IMIC and IBIS discussion that the IBIS Open Forum still needed
to come up with a position statement on the relationship of the documents.
The commitment was made to work together, but the nature of the relationship
needed to be defined.  A small committee consisting of Bob, Stephen Peters,
Raj Raghuram, Norio Matsui, and Ed Sayre (plus the other officers and some
other interested members) had provided input to the previously mentioned
IMIC and IBIS article in Nikkei Electronics.  Included were the options to
consider:

  Merge
    IMIC plus IBIS (Bob thought unlikely since result would be too large)
    IMIC a subset of IBIS
    IBIS a subset of IMIC
    
  Link
    IBIS calls IMIC structures (and Spice structures)
    IMIC calls IBIS structures
    
  Independent Standards(s)
    IBIS translates to IBIS (already shown in the IMIC document)
    Only IBIS? (unlikely because of the support for IMIC)
    Only IMIC (unlikely since IBIS is well established)
    
Bob also noted that a fundamental comment regarding IMIC was that while it hid 
the proprietary process information using the table model methodology, IMIC
still appeared to require revealing the structural details for accuracy.  This
would be a fundamental barrier to wide-spread acceptance.  IBIS perhaps could
be regarded as a higher level approach that required adding some behavioral
constructs for higher level detail (such as with [Driver Schedule], and 
Dynamic_clamps and Bus_hold).  However this requires adding complexity to
the IBIS standard.

Michael Cohen asked how we proceed.  Bob wants to continue the discussion as
a scheduled agenda item in the technical section.  This discussion also 
relates to the general Version 4.X extensions.

VERSION 4.X NEW FEATURES
Arpad Muranyi asked what was happening regarding the Input extensions that
D.C. Sessions had been reporting.  Bob Ross stated that he believes that
Stephen Peters plans to work with D.C. regarding submitting a BIRD for the
proposed Input detail.  

Bob noted that Michael Cohen may also consider some Vmeas extensions at that
time regarding independent rising and falling waveform measurement points.
Michael has seen this put into some models.  This is not supported in IBIS
Version 3.2.

Arpad Muranyi elaborated on equation based modeling.  Functional relationships
could be added for voltage controlled and current controlled sources and
scaling.  Arpad thinks that this might be a solution to the current problem 
of requiring more syntactical extensions for more features.  The Spice and
IMIC approach can provide functional extensions without requiring new syntax.
Raj Raghuram commented that standards such as Analog-VHDL and company 
proprietary equation-based syntax already exist.  It is better to go with an 
existing standard than to invent a new one.  The committee members are not
too familiar with the details and status.  Bob commented that the equation 
syntax would not only be of the IBIS model data itself, but also provide the 
specific algorithms to process the model.  

Bob stated that the EIA IBIS Open Forum is really going to be busy considering
a number of new ideas.  These include IMIC, the Connector Specification, EMI 
extensions, the Accuracy Specification and the specific Version 4.X features 
that will be proposed.  All of this will be occurring while we also work on
ratifying Version 3.2 and dealing with questions that arise.

NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, May 7, 1999 from 8:00 AM to
10:00 AM.
==============================================================================
                                      NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
            [email-masked]
            Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics
            8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070

VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF1-56
            2111 NE 25th Ave. 
            Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961

SECRETARY:  Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
            17641 NE 67th Court
            Redmond, WA 98052

LIBRARIAN:  Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
            [email-masked]
            Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems (formerly Quad Design)
            1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
 
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

  [email-masked]
      To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
      ([email-masked]), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector ([email-masked])
      or both.  State your request.

  [email-masked]
      To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
      for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
      Open Forum as a full Member.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector.  This
      is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
      technical enhancements.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector.  This is 
      used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
      general user concerns.  Job posting information is not permitted.

  [email-masked]
      To report ibischk2 parser bugs.  The Bug Report Form Resides on
      eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.

      To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
      which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, 
      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
      respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:

  http://www.eia.org

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================