Subject: ibis-users V1 #21
From: owner-ibis-users@ (ibis-users)
To: [email-masked]

ibis-users            Thursday, May 8 2003            Volume 01 : Number 021

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:41:42 -0700
From: "Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

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Yes, C_comp includes all the capacitance associated with the I/O cell.  If
it has a powerclamp or a termination resistor then the capacitance of those
should be included in C_comp.  Also see IBIS 4 that has many different
C_comp values, each associated with different structures in the cell.

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
[email-masked] 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:33 PM
To: [email-masked]; Muranyi, Arpad
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail); Ross, Bob
Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver

Hi Tom, Muranyi, and Bob,

Thanks for your clear answer. It's really helpful for me.
There is the other related question. When characterizing C_comp, should
spice netlist consider every thing on die, including clamping diode (or
transistor) and terminator resistor?
Bob, do you mind also providing your professional comment for that? (I still
remember you had a very good and practical presentation mention about C_comp
characterization in designcon2003, such as "Frequency domain" or "Time
domain" Techniques.)

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:55 PM
To: Eric Hsu; 'Muranyi, Arpad'
Cc: 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver

Jeff

An input has several characteristics.  One is input C or C_comp, another is
the input thresholds such as Vinh and Vinl.  A third characteristic are the
clamp characteristics.  Another is the DC input resistance.  For most CMOS
inputs this input resistance is very high, so high that we can neglect it
(OK, it shows up as nAmps or pAmps).  But for the case where the input
resistance of the receiver is finite, like a 50 Ohm termination, we need to
model it.  We place that model in one of the clamp tables.

A terminator has input C and input R but has no ability to differentiate
between a logic low and a logic high.  Thus a terminator model cannot be
used for an input which has thresholds it needs to let the simulator
understand.

So, input and terminator models are not interchangeable.  They have
different applications.  But inside the input model we can describe a
termination.

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
[email-masked] 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:11 PM
To: [email-masked]; Muranyi, Arpad
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver

Hi Tom and Muranyi,

Do you mean there is no difference for input receiver when generating ibis
model? No matter it has or not terminator resistor on chip, I always can use
the same model type like input?
Thanks for your guidance!

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:54 PM
> To:	Eric Hsu
> Subject:	RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> If you use terminator you do not have an input model but a model of a
resistor. An input model is what you want with the characteristic of the on
die resistor embedded in one of the clamp curves.
> 
> Tom Dagostino
> 
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> 
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
> 
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> 
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
> 
> [email-masked]
> 
> 	 -----Original Message-----
> 	From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]  On Behalf
Of Eric Hsu
> 	Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
> 	To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> 	Cc:	Frank Dunlap
> 	Subject:	model issue for input receiver
> 
> 	Hi
> 
> 	Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input
receiver with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters
[Vinh] and [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is
the meaning of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator
model in IBIS spec. 3.2 version, page20?
> 
> 	Best Regards,
> 
> 	Eric Hsu
> 	Interface Technologies
> 	NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 	450 National Ave.
> 	Mountain View, CA 94043
> 	650-961-6676 x198
> 
> 	CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
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> 	the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
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notified 
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> 	strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and
notify us 
> 	by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> 	This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential
information
> 
> 

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:40:22 -0700
From: "Scott McMorrow" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

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Eric,

In order to characterize C-comp, it is necessary to measure everything, 
all die capacitance of I/O cell, clamping and ESD structures, along with 
all other parasitic capacitance in the redistribution layer, if that is 
not included in the package model.

regards,

scott

- -- 
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 239-5536
http://www.teraspeed.com

Eric Hsu wrote:

>Hi Tom, Muranyi, and Bob,
>
>Thanks for your clear answer. It's really helpful for me.
>There is the other related question. When characterizing C_comp, should spice netlist consider every thing on die, including clamping diode (or transistor) and terminator resistor?
>Bob, do you mind also providing your professional comment for that? (I still remember you had a very good and practical presentation mention about C_comp characterization in designcon2003, such as "Frequency domain" or "Time domain" Techniques.)
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Eric Hsu
>Interface Technologies
>NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>450 National Ave.
>Mountain View, CA 94043
>650-961-6676 x198
>
>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
>addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
>exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
>the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
>delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
>that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
>strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
>by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:55 PM
>To: Eric Hsu; 'Muranyi, Arpad'
>Cc: 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
>Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver
>
>
>Jeff
>
>An input has several characteristics.  One is input C or C_comp, another is the input thresholds such as Vinh and Vinl.  A third characteristic are the clamp characteristics.  Another is the DC input resistance.  For most CMOS inputs this input resistance is very high, so high that we can neglect it (OK, it shows up as nAmps or pAmps).  But for the case where the input resistance of the receiver is finite, like a 50 Ohm termination, we need to model it.  We place that model in one of the clamp tables.
>
>A terminator has input C and input R but has no ability to differentiate between a logic low and a logic high.  Thus a terminator model cannot be used for an input which has thresholds it needs to let the simulator understand.
>
>So, input and terminator models are not interchangeable.  They have different applications.  But inside the input model we can describe a termination.
>
>
>Tom Dagostino
>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
>Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
>http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
>[email-masked] 
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:11 PM
>To: [email-masked]; Muranyi, Arpad
>Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
>Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver
>
>
>Hi Tom and Muranyi,
>
>Do you mean there is no difference for input receiver when generating ibis model? No matter it has or not terminator resistor on chip, I always can use the same model type like input?
>Thanks for your guidance!
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Eric Hsu
>Interface Technologies
>NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>450 National Ave.
>Mountain View, CA 94043
>650-961-6676 x198
>
>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
>addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
>exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
>the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
>delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
>that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
>strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
>by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
>  
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>From: 	Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]] 
>>Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:54 PM
>>To:	Eric Hsu
>>Subject:	RE: model issue for input receiver
>>
>>If you use terminator you do not have an input model but a model of a resistor. An input model is what you want with the characteristic of the on die resistor embedded in one of the clamp curves.
>>
>>Tom Dagostino
>>
>>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>
>>2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
>>
>>Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>>
>>                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
>>
>>http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
>>
>>[email-masked]
>>
>>	 -----Original Message-----
>>	From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]  On Behalf Of Eric Hsu
>>	Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
>>	To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
>>	Cc:	Frank Dunlap
>>	Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>>
>>	Hi
>>
>>	Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS spec. 3.2 version, page20?
>>
>>	Best Regards,
>>
>>	Eric Hsu
>>	Interface Technologies
>>	NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>>	450 National Ave.
>>	Mountain View, CA 94043
>>	650-961-6676 x198
>>
>>	CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>	This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
>>	addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
>>	exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
>>	the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
>>	delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
>>	that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
>>	strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
>>	by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>	This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>>
>>
>>    
>>
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Eric,<br>
<br>
In order to characterize C-comp, it is necessary to measure everything, all
die capacitance of I/O cell, clamping and ESD structures, along with all
other parasitic capacitance in the redistribution layer, if that is not included
in the package model.<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
<br>
scott<br>
<br>
 
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">-- 
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 239-5536
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.teraspeed.com">http://www.teraspeed.com</a>

</pre>
<br>
<br>
Eric Hsu wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="[email-masked]">
  <pre wrap="">Hi Tom, Muranyi, and Bob,

Thanks for your clear answer. It's really helpful for me.
There is the other related question. When characterizing C_comp, should spice netlist consider every thing on die, including clamping diode (or transistor) and terminator resistor?
Bob, do you mind also providing your professional comment for that? (I still remember you had a very good and practical presentation mention about C_comp characterization in designcon2003, such as "Frequency domain" or "Time domain" Techniques.)

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dagostino [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</a>]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:55 PM
To: Eric Hsu; 'Muranyi, Arpad'
Cc: 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver

Jeff

An input has several characteristics.  One is input C or C_comp, another is the input thresholds such as Vinh and Vinl.  A third characteristic are the clamp characteristics.  Another is the DC input resistance.  For most CMOS inputs this input resistance is very high, so high that we can neglect it (OK, it shows up as nAmps or pAmps).  But for the case where the input resistance of the receiver is finite, like a 50 Ohm termination, we need to model it.  We place that model in one of the clamp tables.

A terminator has input C and input R but has no ability to differentiate between a logic low and a logic high.  Thus a terminator model cannot be used for an input which has thresholds it needs to let the simulator understand.

So, input and terminator models are not interchangeable.  They have different applications.  But inside the input model we can describe a termination.

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.teraspeed.com">http://www.teraspeed.com</a>           503-430-1065 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hsu [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</a>]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:11 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>; Muranyi, Arpad
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver

Hi Tom and Muranyi,

Do you mean there is no difference for input receiver when generating ibis model? No matter it has or not terminator resistor on chip, I always can use the same model type like input?
Thanks for your guidance!

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap=""> -----Original Message-----
From: 	Tom Dagostino [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</a>] 
Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:54 PM
To:	Eric Hsu
Subject:	RE: model issue for input receiver

If you use terminator you do not have an input model but a model of a resistor. An input model is what you want with the characteristic of the on die resistor embedded in one of the clamp curves.

Tom Dagostino

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC

2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division

Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane

                                   Beaverton, OR 97008

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.teraspeed.com">http://www.teraspeed.com</a>           503-430-1065 

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

	 -----Original Message-----
	From: 	Eric Hsu [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</a>]  On Behalf Of Eric Hsu
	Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
	To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
	Cc:	Frank Dunlap
	Subject:	model issue for input receiver

	Hi

	Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS spec. 3.2 version, page20?

	Best Regards,

	Eric Hsu
	Interface Technologies
	NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
	450 National Ave.
	Mountain View, CA 94043
	650-961-6676 x198

	CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
	This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
	addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
	exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
	the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
	delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
	that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
	strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
	by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
	This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:05:54 -0700
From: Bob Ross <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Eric:

I agree with Tom's and Scott's responses to your question.  Everything
is included for C_comp.

The C_comp should be extracted, if possible, in a high-Z or Input mode
for 3-state and I/O buffers.  The Terminator model type is analogous
to the high-Z mode of a 3-state buffer where the Vinl and Vinh are
not specified or used.

However, several additional keyword are available only for Terminator
models in IBIS that were intended for actual terminator components:
[Rpower], [Rgnd], [Rac], and [Cac].

Best Regards,
Bob

Eric,

In order to characterize C-comp, it is necessary to measure everything, all die 
capacitance of I/O cell, clamping and ESD structures, along with all other 
parasitic capacitance in the redistribution layer, if that is not included in 
the package model.

regards,

scott

Tom Dagostino wrote:

> Yes, C_comp includes all the capacitance associated with the I/O cell.  If
> it has a powerclamp or a termination resistor then the capacitance of those
> should be included in C_comp.  Also see IBIS 4 that has many different
> C_comp values, each associated with different structures in the cell.
> 
> Tom Dagostino
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
> [email-masked] 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:33 PM
> To: [email-masked]; Muranyi, Arpad
> Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail); Ross, Bob
> Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> 
> Hi Tom, Muranyi, and Bob,
> 
> Thanks for your clear answer. It's really helpful for me.
> There is the other related question. When characterizing C_comp, should
> spice netlist consider every thing on die, including clamping diode (or
> transistor) and terminator resistor?
> Bob, do you mind also providing your professional comment for that? (I still
> remember you had a very good and practical presentation mention about C_comp
> characterization in designcon2003, such as "Frequency domain" or "Time
> domain" Techniques.)
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Eric Hsu
> Interface Technologies
> NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 450 National Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> 650-961-6676 x198
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
> addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
> strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
> by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:55 PM
> To: Eric Hsu; 'Muranyi, Arpad'
> Cc: 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
> Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> An input has several characteristics.  One is input C or C_comp, another is
> the input thresholds such as Vinh and Vinl.  A third characteristic are the
> clamp characteristics.  Another is the DC input resistance.  For most CMOS
> inputs this input resistance is very high, so high that we can neglect it
> (OK, it shows up as nAmps or pAmps).  But for the case where the input
> resistance of the receiver is finite, like a 50 Ohm termination, we need to
> model it.  We place that model in one of the clamp tables.
> 
> A terminator has input C and input R but has no ability to differentiate
> between a logic low and a logic high.  Thus a terminator model cannot be
> used for an input which has thresholds it needs to let the simulator
> understand.
> 
> So, input and terminator models are not interchangeable.  They have
> different applications.  But inside the input model we can describe a
> termination.
> 
> 
> Tom Dagostino
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
> [email-masked] 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:11 PM
> To: [email-masked]; Muranyi, Arpad
> Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> 
> Hi Tom and Muranyi,
> 
> Do you mean there is no difference for input receiver when generating ibis
> model? No matter it has or not terminator resistor on chip, I always can use
> the same model type like input?
> Thanks for your guidance!
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Eric Hsu
> Interface Technologies
> NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 450 National Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> 650-961-6676 x198
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
> addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
> strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
> by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>From: 	Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]] 
>>Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:54 PM
>>To:	Eric Hsu
>>Subject:	RE: model issue for input receiver
>>
>>If you use terminator you do not have an input model but a model of a
>>
> resistor. An input model is what you want with the characteristic of the on
> die resistor embedded in one of the clamp curves.
> 
>>Tom Dagostino
>>
>>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>
>>2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
>>
>>Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>>
>>                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
>>
>>http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
>>
>>[email-masked]
>>
>>	 -----Original Message-----
>>	From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]  On Behalf
>>
> Of Eric Hsu
> 
>>	Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
>>	To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
>>	Cc:	Frank Dunlap
>>	Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>>
>>	Hi
>>
>>	Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input
>>
> receiver with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters
> [Vinh] and [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is
> the meaning of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator
> model in IBIS spec. 3.2 version, page20?
> 
>>	Best Regards,
>>
>>	Eric Hsu
>>	Interface Technologies
>>	NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>>	450 National Ave.
>>	Mountain View, CA 94043
>>	650-961-6676 x198
>>
>>	CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>	This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which
>>
> it is 
> 
>>	addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
>>
> confidential and 
> 
>>	exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are
>>
> not 
> 
>>	the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
>>	delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>
> notified 
> 
>>	that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>>
> communication is 
> 
>>	strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and
>>
> notify us 
> 
>>	by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>	This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential
>>
> information
> 
>>

- -- 
Bob Ross
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
503-239-5536                       Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]                  503-246-8048 Direct

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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:33:08 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

If the terminator model doesn't use the [Rgnd], [Rpower], [Rac], [Cac]
keywords and you add Vinh and Vinl to it, you can turn it into an input
model type.

Arpad
P.S.  My first name is Arpad, not Muranyi.
=======================================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:11 PM
To: [email-masked]; Muranyi, Arpad
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: model issue for input receiver

Hi Tom and Muranyi,

Do you mean there is no difference for input receiver when generating ibis model? No matter it has or not terminator resistor on chip, I always can use the same model type like input?
Thanks for your guidance!

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:54 PM
> To:	Eric Hsu
> Subject:	RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> If you use terminator you do not have an input model but a model of a resistor. An input model is what you want with the characteristic of the on die resistor embedded in one of the clamp curves.
> 
> Tom Dagostino
> 
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> 
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
> 
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> 
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
> 
> [email-masked]
> 
> 	 -----Original Message-----
> 	From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]  On Behalf Of Eric Hsu
> 	Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
> 	To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> 	Cc:	Frank Dunlap
> 	Subject:	model issue for input receiver
> 
> 	Hi
> 
> 	Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS spec. 3.2 version, page20?
> 
> 	Best Regards,
> 
> 	Eric Hsu
> 	Interface Technologies
> 	NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 	450 National Ave.
> 	Mountain View, CA 94043
> 	650-961-6676 x198
> 
> 	CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> 	This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
> 	addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
> 	exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
> 	the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
> 	delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
> 	that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
> 	strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
> 	by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> 	This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
> 
> 
|------------------------------------------------------------------
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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:33:52 -0400
From: "Todd Westerhoff" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!

Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?

If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in the
IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
termination strength) you bargained for?

We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
light on this?

Thanks,

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Cc: Frank Dunlap
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Eric,

No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an input
is
that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If you
want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have to
put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV curves.

Arpad
============================================================================
==

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
> To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc:	Frank Dunlap
> Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>
> Hi
>
> Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
[Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning
of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS
spec. 3.2 version, page20?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Eric Hsu
> Interface Technologies
> NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 450 National Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> 650-961-6676 x198
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
> addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
> by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:01:42 -0700
From: "Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

The approach I use is very simple to perform.  Assume you have a pulldown
termination.  I'd normally include the termination along with the ground
clamp.  I start with the IV sweep that covers the full -Vcc to +2*Vcc range.
I create a second curve that is identical to the first except the current in
the range from Vcc to 2*Vcc is replaced by the linear extrapolation of the
current in the region between ground and Vcc.  I then subtract the two.  The
second curve will be the ground clamp curve and the subtraction becomes the
power clamp curve once the proper formatting is applied to it to make if Vcc
relative.

If the termination was a pullup I'd place the termination in the powerclamp
via the same method.  The same procedure works for any arbitrary termination
voltage but in those cases you have to decide which clamp to put the
termination in.

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:34 PM
To: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!

Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?

If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in the
IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
termination strength) you bargained for?

We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
light on this?

Thanks,

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Cc: Frank Dunlap
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Eric,

No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an input
is
that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If you
want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have to
put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV curves.

Arpad
============================================================================
==

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
> To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc:	Frank Dunlap
> Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>
> Hi
>
> Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
[Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning
of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS
spec. 3.2 version, page20?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Eric Hsu
> Interface Technologies
> NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 450 National Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> 650-961-6676 x198
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
> addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
> by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 10:11:28 -0700
From: Bob Ross <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Todd:

The terminator characteristics should be put in the clamp from
which the terminator is referenced.  A "pullup" terminator would
normally be in the [Power Clamp] table, and a "pulldown" terminator
would be in the [Gnd Clamp] table.

Usually data sheets give information on where terminators are
connected.

A parallel terminator should have its characteristics split
between both clamp tables.  For example, a parallel terminator
constructed with two 100 ohm resistors should have a 100 ohm resistance
component in each clamp.  Usually data sheet information is provided,
and sometimes some mathematical allocation of currents is needed.

I have not tested this, but it might be possible to extract terminator
components directly.  For example, the Vcc terminal could be connected
to the I/O terminal to get the [Gnd Clamp] component of a parallel
terminator (by zeroing out the power clamp component).  Similarly, the
Vss terminal could be connected to the I/O terminal for the
[Power Clamp] component.  Both sweeps would be done in the High-Z
or Input mode.

To restate the point you make, while the [Gnd Clamp] and [Power Clamp]
sweep ranges IMPLY concatenation of the tables, the correct IBIS
interpretation is that both tables can extend over the entire
voltage range (by extrapolation), and that both table contributions
alway exist and the currents are always added.  (In most devices without
internal terminators, the concatenation also works because the
currents and their slopes for extrapolation are 0.0.)

Bob

Todd Westerhoff wrote:

> Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!
> 
> Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
> should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?
> 
> If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
> perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
> termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in the
> IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
> termination strength) you bargained for?
> 
> We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
> termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
> light on this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Todd.
> 
> Todd Westerhoff
> High Speed Design Specialist
> Cisco Systems
> 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
> email:[email-masked]
> ph: 978-936-2149
> ============================================
> 
> "When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
>  Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"
> 
> - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
> To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc: Frank Dunlap
> Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> 
> Eric,
> 
> No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an input
> is
> that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If you
> want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have to
> put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV curves.
> 
> Arpad
> ============================================================================
> ==
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
>>To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
>>Cc:	Frank Dunlap
>>Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
>>
> with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
> [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning
> of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS
> spec. 3.2 version, page20?
> 
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Eric Hsu
>>Interface Technologies
>>NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>>450 National Ave.
>>Mountain View, CA 94043
>>650-961-6676 x198
>>
>>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
>>addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
>>exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
>>the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
>>delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>>that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>>strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
>>by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>>

- -- 
Bob Ross
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
503-239-5536                       Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]                  503-246-8048 Direct

|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Syed Huq <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)

- ------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------

From: Gustavo Blando <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:05:36 -0400 
MIME-Version: 1.0

I would like to ask a question for an IBIS specification. I am not sure if
I am sending this email to the right place, if not please advise where it
should be sent.

Hello, if I have an internal 100 Ohms termination in my receiver between P
and N.
How is the appropriate way to model that in IBIS.
Please advise off different alternatives.

Thanks.

This is what I tried, but it did not work, It says this
ERROR - Component 'XXXX': [Series Pin Mapping] Pin2 '17': model type cannot
be Series or Series_switch.

[Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
| 
16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
|
[Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
|
16 17 800mv NA NA NA
|

[Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
16 17 Series_100
|
[Model] Z630781_IN4
Model_type Input_ECL
Vinl = 1.657V
Vinh = 2.277V
C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
|
| variable typ    min    max
[Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
[GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
[POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
|
[GND Clamp]
|
- -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
- -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
- -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
- -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
- -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
- -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
- -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
- -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
1.449V 0.000A NA NA
6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
|
[POWER Clamp]
|
6.600V 0.000A NA NA
- -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
- -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
- -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
- -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
- -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
- -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
- -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
|

[Model]          Series_100
Model_type       Series
C_comp           0  0  0
|
[Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
[R series]       100        86        120

Gus

Gustavo Blando
Axiowave Networks
Tel:  (774) 348-4784 
Fax: (774) 348-4008
email: [email-masked]

- ------------- End Forwarded Message -------------

|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:01:43 -0700
From: "Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)

I took the data Gustovo had put into a full IBIS model.  I then passed it
through the current checker and obtained no errors or warnings.

Checking untitled.ibs for IBIS 3.2 Compatibility...

Errors  : 0

File Passed

I suspect you were using an old version of the parser that had a bug or the
IBIS version in the model was not up to date to handle the features in this
model.

|***********************************************************************
|
[IBIS ver]       3.2
[File name]      untitled.ibs
[File Rev]       1.0
[Date]           May 1, 2003
[Source]         Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
[Notes]          Test model
[Disclaimer]     Absolutely no guarantees, for modeling purposes only
|
|************************************************************************
|                        Component test
|************************************************************************
|
[Component]      Untitled
[Manufacturer]   Test
[Package]
| variable       typ                 min                 max
R_pkg            18.60m              16.50m              21.20m
L_pkg            5.17nH              4.58nH              5.89nH
C_pkg            1.47pF              1.17pF              1.69pF
|
[Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
|
16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
|
[Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
|
16 17 800mv NA NA NA
|

[Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
16 17 Series_100
|
[Model] Z630781_IN4
Model_type Input_ECL
Vinl = 1.657V
Vinh = 2.277V
C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
|
| variable typ    min    max
[Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
[GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
[POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
|
[GND Clamp]
|
- -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
- -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
- -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
- -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
- -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
- -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
- -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
- -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
1.449V 0.000A NA NA
6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
|
[POWER Clamp]
|
6.600V 0.000A NA NA
- -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
- -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
- -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
- -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
- -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
- -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
- -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
|

[Model]          Series_100
Model_type       Series
C_comp           0  0  0
|
[Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
[R series]       100        86        120
[End]

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Syed Huq
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:13 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms
termination)

- ------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------

From: Gustavo Blando <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:05:36 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0

I would like to ask a question for an IBIS specification. I am not sure if
I am sending this email to the right place, if not please advise where it
should be sent.

Hello, if I have an internal 100 Ohms termination in my receiver between P
and N.
How is the appropriate way to model that in IBIS.
Please advise off different alternatives.

Thanks.

This is what I tried, but it did not work, It says this
ERROR - Component 'XXXX': [Series Pin Mapping] Pin2 '17': model type cannot
be Series or Series_switch.

[Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
|
16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
|
[Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
|
16 17 800mv NA NA NA
|

[Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
16 17 Series_100
|
[Model] Z630781_IN4
Model_type Input_ECL
Vinl = 1.657V
Vinh = 2.277V
C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
|
| variable typ    min    max
[Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
[GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
[POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
|
[GND Clamp]
|
- -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
- -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
- -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
- -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
- -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
- -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
- -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
- -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
1.449V 0.000A NA NA
6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
|
[POWER Clamp]
|
6.600V 0.000A NA NA
- -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
- -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
- -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
- -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
- -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
- -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
- -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
|

[Model]          Series_100
Model_type       Series
C_comp           0  0  0
|
[Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
[R series]       100        86        120

Gus

Gustavo Blando
Axiowave Networks
Tel:  (774) 348-4784
Fax: (774) 348-4008
email: [email-masked]

- ------------- End Forwarded Message -------------

|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
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|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
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|
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|
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|
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/  Recent
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

|------------------------------------------------------------------
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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
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|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:21:18 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)

Syed,

You could use the [Series Pin Mapping] keyword and a [Model] of
Series type which has a [R Series] keyword with 100 ohms in it.

The only problem is that you need to check whether the tool you
are using is supporting these keywords (or if they do, whether
it works or not).

Arpad
===============================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Syed Huq [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:13 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms
termination)

- ------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------

From: Gustavo Blando <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:05:36 -0400 
MIME-Version: 1.0

I would like to ask a question for an IBIS specification. I am not sure if
I am sending this email to the right place, if not please advise where it
should be sent.

Hello, if I have an internal 100 Ohms termination in my receiver between P
and N.
How is the appropriate way to model that in IBIS.
Please advise off different alternatives.

Thanks.

This is what I tried, but it did not work, It says this
ERROR - Component 'XXXX': [Series Pin Mapping] Pin2 '17': model type cannot
be Series or Series_switch.

[Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
| 
16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
|
[Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
|
16 17 800mv NA NA NA
|

[Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
16 17 Series_100
|
[Model] Z630781_IN4
Model_type Input_ECL
Vinl = 1.657V
Vinh = 2.277V
C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
|
| variable typ    min    max
[Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
[GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
[POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
|
[GND Clamp]
|
- -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
- -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
- -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
- -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
- -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
- -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
- -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
- -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
1.449V 0.000A NA NA
6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
|
[POWER Clamp]
|
6.600V 0.000A NA NA
- -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
- -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
- -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
- -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
- -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
- -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
- -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
- -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
- -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
|

[Model]          Series_100
Model_type       Series
C_comp           0  0  0
|
[Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
[R series]       100        86        120

Gus

Gustavo Blando
Axiowave Networks
Tel:  (774) 348-4784 
Fax: (774) 348-4008
email: [email-masked]

- ------------- End Forwarded Message -------------

|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
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|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993
|------------------------------------------------------------------
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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
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|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:28:08 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Todd,

Your concern is about double counting.  They way I eliminate it
is described on pg 80-81 in my IBIS class presentation.  (This
algorithm is part of IBIS Center).

http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/training/

IBIS_class_JEDEC.zip and look at the PDF file.

Arpad
===============================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Todd Westerhoff [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:34 PM
To: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!

Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?

If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in the
IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
termination strength) you bargained for?

We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
light on this?

Thanks,

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Cc: Frank Dunlap
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Eric,

No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an input
is
that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If you
want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have to
put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV curves.

Arpad
============================================================================
==

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
> To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc:	Frank Dunlap
> Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>
> Hi
>
> Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
[Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning
of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS
spec. 3.2 version, page20?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Eric Hsu
> Interface Technologies
> NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 450 National Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> 650-961-6676 x198
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
> addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
> by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
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|
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|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993
|------------------------------------------------------------------
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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:30:14 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

This is also a good way of doing it.

Arpad
=====================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 9:02 AM
To: 'Todd Westerhoff'; 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

The approach I use is very simple to perform.  Assume you have a pulldown
termination.  I'd normally include the termination along with the ground
clamp.  I start with the IV sweep that covers the full -Vcc to +2*Vcc range.
I create a second curve that is identical to the first except the current in
the range from Vcc to 2*Vcc is replaced by the linear extrapolation of the
current in the region between ground and Vcc.  I then subtract the two.  The
second curve will be the ground clamp curve and the subtraction becomes the
power clamp curve once the proper formatting is applied to it to make if Vcc
relative.

If the termination was a pullup I'd place the termination in the powerclamp
via the same method.  The same procedure works for any arbitrary termination
voltage but in those cases you have to decide which clamp to put the
termination in.

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:34 PM
To: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!

Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?

If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in the
IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
termination strength) you bargained for?

We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
light on this?

Thanks,

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Cc: Frank Dunlap
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Eric,

No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an input
is
that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If you
want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have to
put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV curves.

Arpad
============================================================================
==

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
> To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc:	Frank Dunlap
> Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>
> Hi
>
> Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
[Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning
of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS
spec. 3.2 version, page20?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Eric Hsu
> Interface Technologies
> NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
> 450 National Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> 650-961-6676 x198
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
> addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
> by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
> This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:43:08 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Now that Bob brought up the "parallel" termination (which is actually
a totem-pole, double resistor termination between the power-I/O-ground
nodes), I would like to mention how I would do it.  (This is not
explained in the IBIS class material I referenced in my previous posting
but is also implemented in IBIS Center).

From left to right, I keep the data up to the point where it reaches
zero current, and from there I cut off everything else to the right,
by replacing everything with zeroes.  I do this in both the GND relative
and the Vcc relative data.  While it is true that this kind of separation
does not separate the upper and lower resistor's values for the processed
data that goes into the IBIS model, it is still better than keeping
everything in just one clamp curve.  In order to decompose the curves
into their true impedances, one would have to either do the measurements
differently or separate the two resistors in the netlist for the two
measurements.

Arpad
========================================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ross [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:11 AM
To: Todd Westerhoff
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Todd:

The terminator characteristics should be put in the clamp from
which the terminator is referenced.  A "pullup" terminator would
normally be in the [Power Clamp] table, and a "pulldown" terminator
would be in the [Gnd Clamp] table.

Usually data sheets give information on where terminators are
connected.

A parallel terminator should have its characteristics split
between both clamp tables.  For example, a parallel terminator
constructed with two 100 ohm resistors should have a 100 ohm resistance
component in each clamp.  Usually data sheet information is provided,
and sometimes some mathematical allocation of currents is needed.

I have not tested this, but it might be possible to extract terminator
components directly.  For example, the Vcc terminal could be connected
to the I/O terminal to get the [Gnd Clamp] component of a parallel
terminator (by zeroing out the power clamp component).  Similarly, the
Vss terminal could be connected to the I/O terminal for the
[Power Clamp] component.  Both sweeps would be done in the High-Z
or Input mode.

To restate the point you make, while the [Gnd Clamp] and [Power Clamp]
sweep ranges IMPLY concatenation of the tables, the correct IBIS
interpretation is that both tables can extend over the entire
voltage range (by extrapolation), and that both table contributions
alway exist and the currents are always added.  (In most devices without
internal terminators, the concatenation also works because the
currents and their slopes for extrapolation are 0.0.)

Bob

Todd Westerhoff wrote:

> Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!
> 
> Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
> should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?
> 
> If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
> perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
> termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in the
> IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
> termination strength) you bargained for?
> 
> We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
> termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
> light on this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Todd.
> 
> Todd Westerhoff
> High Speed Design Specialist
> Cisco Systems
> 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
> email:[email-masked]
> ph: 978-936-2149
> ============================================
> 
> "When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
>  Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"
> 
> - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
> To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc: Frank Dunlap
> Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver
> 
> 
> Eric,
> 
> No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an input
> is
> that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If you
> want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have to
> put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV curves.
> 
> Arpad
> ============================================================================
> ==
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
>>To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
>>Cc:	Frank Dunlap
>>Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
>>
> with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
> [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the meaning
> of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in IBIS
> spec. 3.2 version, page20?
> 
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Eric Hsu
>>Interface Technologies
>>NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>>450 National Ave.
>>Mountain View, CA 94043
>>650-961-6676 x198
>>
>>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
>>addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
>>exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
>>the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
>>delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>>that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>>strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
>>by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>>

- -- 
Bob Ross
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
503-239-5536                       Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]                  503-246-8048 Direct

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 15:45:24 -0400
From: Peter LaFlamme <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)

Hi Tom,
Nice work putting the model into the parser. However, I think the real problem is not the model syntax. It is " which software programs will actually recognize this"? I have created models just like this and have never found a program that would actually
understand the syntax (or actually use the model properly). I think that this method of modeling the termination resistor is much better than that dynamic clamp mumbo jumbo that you see in other models. I find models using that method are usually pretty 
hokey. 

On that note... It would also be nice for the IBIS committee members that actually read these messages to think about creating an IBIS modeling cookbook for Version 3 and Version 4. I think that this is just as important as the specification. Additionally,
it would be nice to hear which software vendors support which features within IBIS. It gets kind of frustrating when everyone that has a problem always blames the model. 

Now I feel better...

Peter

Tom Dagostino wrote:
> 
> I took the data Gustovo had put into a full IBIS model.  I then passed it
> through the current checker and obtained no errors or warnings.
> 
> Checking untitled.ibs for IBIS 3.2 Compatibility...
> 
> Errors  : 0
> 
> File Passed
> 
> I suspect you were using an old version of the parser that had a bug or the
> IBIS version in the model was not up to date to handle the features in this
> model.
> 
> |***********************************************************************
> |
> [IBIS ver]       3.2
> [File name]      untitled.ibs
> [File Rev]       1.0
> [Date]           May 1, 2003
> [Source]         Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> [Notes]          Test model
> [Disclaimer]     Absolutely no guarantees, for modeling purposes only
> |
> |************************************************************************
> |                        Component test
> |************************************************************************
> |
> [Component]      Untitled
> [Manufacturer]   Test
> [Package]
> | variable       typ                 min                 max
> R_pkg            18.60m              16.50m              21.20m
> L_pkg            5.17nH              4.58nH              5.89nH
> C_pkg            1.47pF              1.17pF              1.69pF
> |
> [Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
> |
> 16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
> 17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
> |
> [Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
> |
> 16 17 800mv NA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
> 16 17 Series_100
> |
> [Model] Z630781_IN4
> Model_type Input_ECL
> Vinl = 1.657V
> Vinh = 2.277V
> C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
> |
> | variable typ    min    max
> [Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
> [GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
> [POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
> |
> [GND Clamp]
> |
> -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
> -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
> -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
> -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
> -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
> -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
> -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
> -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
> 1.449V 0.000A NA NA
> 6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
> |
> [POWER Clamp]
> |
> 6.600V 0.000A NA NA
> -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
> -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
> -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
> -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
> -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
> -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
> -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Model]          Series_100
> Model_type       Series
> C_comp           0  0  0
> |
> [Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
> [R series]       100        86        120
> [End]
> 
> Tom Dagostino
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
> [email-masked]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Syed Huq
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:13 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms
> termination)
> 
> ------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------
> 
> From: Gustavo Blando <[email-masked]>
> To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
> Subject: IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)
> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:05:36 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> I would like to ask a question for an IBIS specification. I am not sure if
> I am sending this email to the right place, if not please advise where it
> should be sent.
> 
> Hello, if I have an internal 100 Ohms termination in my receiver between P
> and N.
> How is the appropriate way to model that in IBIS.
> Please advise off different alternatives.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> This is what I tried, but it did not work, It says this
> ERROR - Component 'XXXX': [Series Pin Mapping] Pin2 '17': model type cannot
> be Series or Series_switch.
> 
> [Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
> |
> 16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
> 17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
> |
> [Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
> |
> 16 17 800mv NA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
> 16 17 Series_100
> |
> [Model] Z630781_IN4
> Model_type Input_ECL
> Vinl = 1.657V
> Vinh = 2.277V
> C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
> |
> | variable typ    min    max
> [Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
> [GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
> [POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
> |
> [GND Clamp]
> |
> -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
> -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
> -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
> -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
> -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
> -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
> -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
> -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
> 1.449V 0.000A NA NA
> 6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
> |
> [POWER Clamp]
> |
> 6.600V 0.000A NA NA
> -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
> -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
> -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
> -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
> -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
> -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
> -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Model]          Series_100
> Model_type       Series
> C_comp           0  0  0
> |
> [Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
> [R series]       100        86        120
> 
> Gus
> 
> Gustavo Blando
> Axiowave Networks
> Tel:  (774) 348-4784
> Fax: (774) 348-4008
> email: [email-masked]
> 
> ------------- End Forwarded Message -------------
> 
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:59:42 -0400
From: "Todd Westerhoff" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Fantastic!

Thanks,

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:43 PM
To: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Now that Bob brought up the "parallel" termination (which is actually
a totem-pole, double resistor termination between the power-I/O-ground
nodes), I would like to mention how I would do it.  (This is not
explained in the IBIS class material I referenced in my previous posting
but is also implemented in IBIS Center).

From left to right, I keep the data up to the point where it reaches
zero current, and from there I cut off everything else to the right,
by replacing everything with zeroes.  I do this in both the GND relative
and the Vcc relative data.  While it is true that this kind of separation
does not separate the upper and lower resistor's values for the processed
data that goes into the IBIS model, it is still better than keeping
everything in just one clamp curve.  In order to decompose the curves
into their true impedances, one would have to either do the measurements
differently or separate the two resistors in the netlist for the two
measurements.

Arpad
========================================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ross [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:11 AM
To: Todd Westerhoff
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver

Todd:

The terminator characteristics should be put in the clamp from
which the terminator is referenced.  A "pullup" terminator would
normally be in the [Power Clamp] table, and a "pulldown" terminator
would be in the [Gnd Clamp] table.

Usually data sheets give information on where terminators are
connected.

A parallel terminator should have its characteristics split
between both clamp tables.  For example, a parallel terminator
constructed with two 100 ohm resistors should have a 100 ohm resistance
component in each clamp.  Usually data sheet information is provided,
and sometimes some mathematical allocation of currents is needed.

I have not tested this, but it might be possible to extract terminator
components directly.  For example, the Vcc terminal could be connected
to the I/O terminal to get the [Gnd Clamp] component of a parallel
terminator (by zeroing out the power clamp component).  Similarly, the
Vss terminal could be connected to the I/O terminal for the
[Power Clamp] component.  Both sweeps would be done in the High-Z
or Input mode.

To restate the point you make, while the [Gnd Clamp] and [Power Clamp]
sweep ranges IMPLY concatenation of the tables, the correct IBIS
interpretation is that both tables can extend over the entire
voltage range (by extrapolation), and that both table contributions
alway exist and the currents are always added.  (In most devices without
internal terminators, the concatenation also works because the
currents and their slopes for extrapolation are 0.0.)

Bob

Todd Westerhoff wrote:

> Funny you should say that - we were just puzzling over this yesterday!
>
> Arpad - I agree with the statement that the terminator characteristics
> should be in one clamp curve or the other - the question is - how?
>
> If the input buffer truly uses on-die termination, then the DC sweeps you
> perform for BOTH the ground clamp and the power clamp will include the
> termination characteristics, correct?  If you put those clamp curves in
the
> IBIS file as-is, won't you get twice the current (and therefore twice the
> termination strength) you bargained for?
>
> We were trying to figure out the right approach to de-embedding the
> termination effect from either one of the clamp curves - can you shed any
> light on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd.
>
> Todd Westerhoff
> High Speed Design Specialist
> Cisco Systems
> 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
> email:[email-masked]
> ph: 978-936-2149
> ============================================
>
> "When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
>  Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"
>
> - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:41 PM
> To: Eric Hsu; Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Cc: Frank Dunlap
> Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: model issue for input receiver
>
>
> Eric,
>
> No.  The reason is because the difference between a terminator and an
input
> is
> that the first one just terminates, and doesn't have Vinh and Vinl.  If
you
> want to make an input model that also has an on-die terminator, you have
to
> put the terminator's characteristics into one or the other clamp IV
curves.
>
> Arpad
>
============================================================================
> ==
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>From: 	Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>Sent:	Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:33 PM
>>To:	Ibis-Users (E-mail)
>>Cc:	Frank Dunlap
>>Subject:	model issue for input receiver
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>Can I choose "terminator" as my [model type] if I have an input receiver
>>
> with on die terminator? If true, can I also use subparameters [Vinh] and
> [Vinl] to define input threshold voltage? If true, then what is the
meaning
> of "...but has no digital logic thresholds..." for terminator model in
IBIS
> spec. 3.2 version, page20?
>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Eric Hsu
>>Interface Technologies
>>NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>>450 National Ave.
>>Mountain View, CA 94043
>>650-961-6676 x198
>>
>>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>>This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is
>>addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
>>exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not
>>the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for
>>delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>>that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>>strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us
>>by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>>

- --
Bob Ross
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
503-239-5536                       Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
[email-masked]                  503-246-8048 Direct

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:15:50 -0400
From: "Lynne Green" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 cookbook (was IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination))

All-

Cookbook 4.0 topic list is under construction.

Anyone having topics they would like to see addressed, please drop me a
line.  Even if it is a frequently-occurring topic (such as on-die
terminations) from the ibis reflector, it doesn't hurt to pass it along.
:-)

Best regards,
Lynne

Dr. Lynne Green
Senior Member of Consulting Staff
Cadence Design Systems, Inc.

"All the world's an analog stage, whereon digital plays bit parts."
Fred Field, Hughes Aircraft (1970's).

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter LaFlamme [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:45 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: 'Syed Huq'; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms
termination)

Hi Tom,
Nice work putting the model into the parser. However, I think the real
problem is not the model syntax. It is " which software programs will
actually recognize this"? I have created models just like this and have
never found a program that would actually understand the syntax (or
actually use the model properly). I think that this method of modeling
the termination resistor is much better than that dynamic clamp mumbo
jumbo that you see in other models. I find models using that method are
usually pretty 
hokey. 

On that note... It would also be nice for the IBIS committee members
that actually read these messages to think about creating an IBIS
modeling cookbook for Version 3 and Version 4. I think that this is just
as important as the specification. Additionally, it would be nice to
hear which software vendors support which features within IBIS. It gets
kind of frustrating when everyone that has a problem always blames the
model. 

Now I feel better...

Peter

Tom Dagostino wrote:
> 
> I took the data Gustovo had put into a full IBIS model.  I then passed

> it through the current checker and obtained no errors or warnings.
> 
> Checking untitled.ibs for IBIS 3.2 Compatibility...
> 
> Errors  : 0
> 
> File Passed
> 
> I suspect you were using an old version of the parser that had a bug 
> or the IBIS version in the model was not up to date to handle the 
> features in this model.
> 
> |*********************************************************************
> |**
> |
> [IBIS ver]       3.2
> [File name]      untitled.ibs
> [File Rev]       1.0
> [Date]           May 1, 2003
> [Source]         Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> [Notes]          Test model
> [Disclaimer]     Absolutely no guarantees, for modeling purposes only
> |
>
|***********************************************************************
*
> |                        Component test
> |*********************************************************************
> |***
> |
> [Component]      Untitled
> [Manufacturer]   Test
> [Package]
> | variable       typ                 min                 max
> R_pkg            18.60m              16.50m              21.20m
> L_pkg            5.17nH              4.58nH              5.89nH
> C_pkg            1.47pF              1.17pF              1.69pF
> |
> [Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
> |
> 16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
> 17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
> |
> [Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
> |
> 16 17 800mv NA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
> 16 17 Series_100
> |
> [Model] Z630781_IN4
> Model_type Input_ECL
> Vinl = 1.657V
> Vinh = 2.277V
> C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
> |
> | variable typ    min    max
> [Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
> [GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
> [POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
> |
> [GND Clamp]
> |
> -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
> -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
> -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
> -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
> -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
> -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
> -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
> -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
> 1.449V 0.000A NA NA
> 6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
> |
> [POWER Clamp]
> |
> 6.600V 0.000A NA NA
> -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
> -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
> -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
> -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
> -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
> -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
> -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Model]          Series_100
> Model_type       Series
> C_comp           0  0  0
> |
> [Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
> [R series]       100        86        120
> [End]
> 
> Tom Dagostino
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
> [email-masked]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Syed Huq
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:13 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms
> termination)
> 
> ------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------
> 
> From: Gustavo Blando <[email-masked]>
> To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
> Subject: IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)
> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:05:36 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> I would like to ask a question for an IBIS specification. I am not 
> sure if I am sending this email to the right place, if not please 
> advise where it should be sent.
> 
> Hello, if I have an internal 100 Ohms termination in my receiver 
> between P and N. How is the appropriate way to model that in IBIS.
> Please advise off different alternatives.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> This is what I tried, but it did not work, It says this
> ERROR - Component 'XXXX': [Series Pin Mapping] Pin2 '17': model type 
> cannot be Series or Series_switch.
> 
> [Pin] signal_name  model_name  R_pin  L_pin C_pin
> |
> 16 CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .174 3.79n .41p
> 17 _CLK1 Z630781_IN4 .171 3.6n .37p
> |
> [Diff Pin] inv_pin vdiff tdelay_typ tdelay_min tdelay_max
> |
> 16 17 800mv NA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Series Pin Mapping] pin_2 model_name
> 16 17 Series_100
> |
> [Model] Z630781_IN4
> Model_type Input_ECL
> Vinl = 1.657V
> Vinh = 2.277V
> C_comp 3.000pF NA NA
> |
> | variable typ    min    max
> [Voltage Range] 3.300V NA NA
> [GND Clamp Reference] 0.000V NA NA
> [POWER Clamp Reference] 3.300V NA NA
> |
> [GND Clamp]
> |
> -3.300V -513.0mA NA NA
> -1.054V -44.40mA NA NA
> -912.0mV -20.00mA NA NA
> -811.0mV -7.000mA NA NA
> -750.0mV -2.300mA NA NA
> -709.0mV -800.0uA NA NA
> -669.0mV -200.0uA NA NA
> -334.5mV 0.000A NA NA
> 1.449V 0.000A NA NA
> 6.600V 250.3uA NA NA
> |
> [POWER Clamp]
> |
> 6.600V 0.000A NA NA
> -326.7mV 0.000A NA NA
> -490.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -561.0mV 86.25uA NA NA
> -632.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -693.0mV 179.3uA NA NA
> -754.0mV 473.4uA NA NA
> -795.0mV 1.271mA NA NA
> -835.0mV 3.069mA NA NA
> -936.0mV 12.36mA NA NA
> -1.038V 26.06mA NA NA
> -3.300V 400.2mA NA NA
> |
> 
> [Model]          Series_100
> Model_type       Series
> C_comp           0  0  0
> |
> [Voltage Range]  3.3        3.1       3.6
> [R series]       100        86        120
> 
> Gus
> 
> Gustavo Blando
> Axiowave Networks
> Tel:  (774) 348-4784
> Fax: (774) 348-4008
> email: [email-masked]
> 
> ------------- End Forwarded Message -------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:28:18 -0400
From: "Lynne Green" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS website (Question, Internal 100 Ohms termination)

Hi, Gus,

Not sure which version of ibischk3 you ran.  But problem might be one of
the
bugs in ibischk3 version 3.2.8 which was fixed in version 3.2.9.

>> ERROR - Component 'XXXX': [Series Pin Mapping] Pin2 '17': model type
cannot be Series or Series_switch.

Also, you might want to consider submitting this model to the IBIS Model
Review Committee.
http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/support.htm

Cheers,
Lynne

Dr. Lynne Green
Senior Member of Consulting Staff
Cadence Design Systems, Inc.

"Digital is analog that you hope is in one of two states."
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:01:05 -0700 
From: "Peters, Stephen" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Agenda, IBIS Open Forum Teleconference 5/9

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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                    IBIS Open Forum Meeting Agenda
                            for 5/9/03
 
                 Bridge Number    Reservation #   Passcode
                 1-916-356-2663       1           8390090
                 (International Dial-In: 1-617-801-9781)
 
All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  When you call into the 
meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Stephen Peters and give the
Reservation Number and Passcode.
 
8:00 Check-In, Intros, Announcements                         Peters
 
     - Intros of New IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum       Peters
     - Call for Patents                                      Peters
     - Membership Update and Treasurers Report               Peters
     - Review of Previous Meeting's Minutes (and ARs)        Peters
     - Miscellany/Announcements                              All
     - Press & Web Page Updates                              Huq, All
     - New Models Available, Library Update                  Leventhal, All
     - Opens for New Issues                                  All
 
8:15 Administrative and Project Discussions
 
     International/External Progress
     - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuits Electromagnetic 
       Model Proposal (IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) Perrin/Peters
     - JEDEC Committee Report                                Green
 
     DAC2003 Meeting Planning                                Peters
     - Election of Officers
 
     DesignCon2003 East Meeting Planning                     Peters
 
     IBIS Version 4.0 Parser Funding and Status              Peters
 
     IBIS Version 4.1 Discussion                             Peters/Ross
 
     IBIS Quality Committee                                  Katz
 
     IBIS Model Review Committee                             Green
 
     New Administrative Issues                               All
 
8:45 Technical Discussion
 
     IBIS Connector Group Report                             Peters/Green
 
     BIRD74.3 - EMI Parameters                               de Burgh
 
     IBISCHK3 Status                                         Ross
     - BUG71 - Monotonic Checking for Combined I-V Tables    Haller
 
     New Technical Issues                                    All
 
9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meetings Plans                         Peters
 
9:55 Sign Off

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</SPAN>for 5/9/03</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D297230115-02052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp; Bridge Number&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reservation =
#&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Passcode<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1-916-356-2663&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
8390090<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
(International Dial-In: 1-617-801-9781)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>All meetings are 8:00 AM to =
9:55 AM Pacific=20
Time.&nbsp; When you call into the <BR>meeting, ask for the IBIS Open =
Forum=20
hosted by Stephen Peters and give the Reservation Number and=20
Passcode.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>8:00 Check-In, Intros,=20
Announcements&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
Intros of New=20
IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Call for=20
Patents&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Membership Update and Treasurers=20
Report&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Review of Previous Meeting's =
Minutes (and=20
ARs)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=20
Miscellany/Announcements&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
All<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Press &amp; Web Page=20
Updates&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Huq, All<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - New Models Available, Library=20
Update&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Leventhal, All<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Opens for New=20
Issues&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
All</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>8:15 Administrative and =
Project=20
Discussions</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
International/External Progress<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - IEC =
62014-3 (ICEM)=20
Integrated Circuits Electromagnetic =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Model Proposal (IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation)=20
Perrin/Peters<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - JEDEC Committee=20
Report&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Green</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
DAC2003 Meeting=20
Planning&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Election of Officers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
DesignCon2003 East=20
Meeting=20
Planning&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IBIS =
Version 4.0=20
Parser Funding and=20
Status&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IBIS =
Version 4.1=20
Discussion&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters/Ross</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IBIS =
Quality=20
Committee&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Katz</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IBIS =
Model Review=20
Committee&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Green</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; New =
Administrative=20
Issues&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
All</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>8:45 Technical =
Discussion</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IBIS =
Connector=20
Group=20
Report&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Peters/Green</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
BIRD74.3 - EMI=20
Parameters&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
de Burgh<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IBISCHK3=20
Status&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Ross<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - BUG71 - Monotonic Checking for =
Combined I-V=20
Tables&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Haller</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; New =
Technical=20
Issues&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
=20
All</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meetings =

Plans&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
Peters</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>9:55 Sign Off</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:37:17 GMT
From: "Kirti Barpande                " <[email-masked]>
Subject: [none]

I require IBIS models for ICs 100E166, 100S324 and 100S325, make Micrel. If 
anyone has it please let me know at the earliest.
Kirti
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:02:22 -0700
From: "Eric Hsu" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] hspice version for s2ibis2?

Hi,

When generating ibis model by s2ibis2 and hspice engine, does any one know the hspice version information to be able to compatible with s2ibis2?

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:08:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Syed Huq <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] hspice version for s2ibis2?

I believe s2ibis2 is not dependent on a particular HSPICE version.
It calls HSPICE thur the [spice type] keyword..

It will pick up the HSPICE version pointed in your PATH variable.

Syed

>content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Subject: [IBIS-Users] hspice version for s2ibis2?
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0
>Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:02:22 -0700
>Thread-Topic: hspice version for s2ibis2?
>Thread-Index: AcMTMHpbBtMfKG3pTNSTXCEkuquNAw==
>From: "Eric Hsu" <[email-masked]>
>To: <[email-masked]>
>Cc: "Frank Dunlap" <[email-masked]>
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id 
h45I0o9a006058
>
>Hi,
>
>When generating ibis model by s2ibis2 and hspice engine, does any one know 
the hspice version information to be able to compatible with s2ibis2?
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Eric Hsu
>Interface Technologies
>NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
>450 National Ave.
>Mountain View, CA 94043
>650-961-6676 x198
>This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:53:54 -0400
From: Timothy Coyle <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Hi,
I know this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm not sure I understand how the Dynamic Clamp is suppose to work. I have an I/O buffer that calls a non-driving Dynamic Power Clamp. I have power clamp data in the I/O buffer model, and more power clamp data in the submodel.
This is for a on-die pullup to VDD. It seems the power clamp in the I/O model contains the pullup, and the submodel power clamp does not.
(this seems to be the power clamp when output is Hi-Z) The IBIS file passes the parser fine, but when I try to use a certain ibis to 
specific model format translator, I get an error saying that the submodel dynamic clamp needs to have a pullup and/or a pulldown curve.
Has anyone published any articles on dynamic clamps or know of where any more info is located?

Regards,
Tim
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:34:39 -0700
From: "Eric Hsu" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C314BE.EFC861BC
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Timothy,

As I know, there is a very good material ever mention about dynamic =
clamp technique, where is http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/training/. The pdf =
file name is IBIS_class_JEDEC written by Arpad Muranyi. I believe you =
can some idea from that.

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it =
is=20
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential =
and=20
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not=20
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for=20
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby =
notified=20
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is =

strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify =
us=20
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential =
information

- -----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Coyle [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 AM
To: IBIS List
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Hi,
I know this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm not sure I =
understand how the Dynamic Clamp is suppose to work. I have an I/O =
buffer that calls a non-driving Dynamic Power Clamp. I have power clamp =
data in the I/O buffer model, and more power clamp data in the submodel.
This is for a on-die pullup to VDD. It seems the power clamp in the I/O =
model contains the pullup, and the submodel power clamp does not.
(this seems to be the power clamp when output is Hi-Z) The IBIS file =
passes the parser fine, but when I try to use a certain ibis to=20
specific model format translator, I get an error saying that the =
submodel dynamic clamp needs to have a pullup and/or a pulldown curve.
Has anyone published any articles on dynamic clamps or know of where any =
more info is located?

Regards,
Tim
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:09:56 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Actually that material doesn't discuss dynamic clamps too much in detail,
so it will not answer the questions raised in Timothy's posting.  I am
planning on writing a response to it, but I didn't get to it yet.

Arpad
=========================================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hsu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 10:35 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Hi Timothy,

As I know, there is a very good material ever mention about dynamic clamp technique, where is http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/training/. The pdf file name is IBIS_class_JEDEC written by Arpad Muranyi. I believe you can some idea from that.

Best Regards,

Eric Hsu
Interface Technologies
NetLogic Microsystems, Inc.
450 National Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043
650-961-6676 x198

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and 
exempt from disclosure under applicable law or contract. If you are not 
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is 
strictly prohibited, and we ask that you delete this message and notify us 
by return email. Thank you for your cooperation.
This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information

- -----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Coyle [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 AM
To: IBIS List
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Hi,
I know this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm not sure I understand how the Dynamic Clamp is suppose to work. I have an I/O buffer that calls a non-driving Dynamic Power Clamp. I have power clamp data in the I/O buffer model, and more power clamp data in the submodel.
This is for a on-die pullup to VDD. It seems the power clamp in the I/O model contains the pullup, and the submodel power clamp does not.
(this seems to be the power clamp when output is Hi-Z) The IBIS file passes the parser fine, but when I try to use a certain ibis to 
specific model format translator, I get an error saying that the submodel dynamic clamp needs to have a pullup and/or a pulldown curve.
Has anyone published any articles on dynamic clamps or know of where any more info is located?

Regards,
Tim
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:12:21 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Tim,

The original purpose of the dynamic clamp in the IBIS specification
was to address some special clamping circuits we had in some of our
buffers.  These clamps would look like a diode, but their reference
voltage (or knee voltage) would be shifted "in" towards the rails
for some time when the pad would see a transition.  This would
effectively reduce overshooting signals without increasing the
DC (or leakage) currents for the rest of the time.

Later we started to make buffers which had on-die termination, but
in such a way that the termination was actually one or the other
transistor left on when the buffer was in the receive mode.  In
SPICE it would be easy just to leave the buffer driving when it
is actually receiving, but some tools may not let you do that where
the definition of the stimulus is not accessible (or flexible enough)
to the user.  It turns out that the dynamic clamp submodel allows
us to make models for this case also (even though this was not the
original purpose of it).  I suspect that your buffer may fall into
this category.

Such buffers can be modeled by making a normal I/O buffer first,
and then making a copy of the pullup or pulldown IV curve over into
the submodel (depending on which way the buffer terminates when it is
in receive mode).  If the buffer terminates to ground with its
pulldown transistor, I copy the pulldown IV curve to the submodel,
but I call it [GND Clamp] to be static.  If I make this submodel
"non-driving" then this submodel (which includes its clamp) will
only be added to the main buffer in the receive mode.  Since the
[GND Clamp] of this submodel is a copy of the pulldown IV curve of
the main buffer, this mechanism will be the same as if the main buffer
was driving low during the time it is receiving.

Regarding the error, the submodel is not required to have all four
IV curves.  You can have only one [*** Clamp] keyword, and it is
legal.  That's why the parser doesn't complain.  If your particular
tool cannot handle that, you need to discuss that with the tool
vendor.  They either didn't understand how to implement it, or
have technical difficulties.  (If you want, you can tell me in a
private mail which vendor it is, we do have discussions with some
vendors regarding IBIS implementations).

I hope this answers your questions.

Arpad Muranyi
Intel Corporation
===================================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Coyle [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 AM
To: IBIS List
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding Dynamic Clamp

Hi,
I know this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm not sure I understand how the Dynamic Clamp is suppose to work. I have an I/O buffer that calls a non-driving Dynamic Power Clamp. I have power clamp data in the I/O buffer model, and more power clamp data in the submodel.
This is for a on-die pullup to VDD. It seems the power clamp in the I/O model contains the pullup, and the submodel power clamp does not.
(this seems to be the power clamp when output is Hi-Z) The IBIS file passes the parser fine, but when I try to use a certain ibis to 
specific model format translator, I get an error saying that the submodel dynamic clamp needs to have a pullup and/or a pulldown curve.
Has anyone published any articles on dynamic clamps or know of where any more info is located?

Regards,
Tim
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:39:42 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Multiple drive strengths

All,
If a pad has software programmable drive strengths, how is that modeled?
Normally these strengths are fixed in the design but occasionally they are
allowed to be manipulated by the OEM to customize their design.
Thanks
Garry Felker

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:29:42 -0700
From: Kannan Srinivasagam <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS for different speed grades

Hi,
          When the vendors create IBIS models are they supposed to have
three different IBIS models for the 3 process corners thus accounting
for the different speed grades
OR
Is one IBIS model sufficient with either just the typical corners
included or slow,typ,fast all included in the model.

Please advise.
Regards
Kannan Srinivasagam

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:03:45 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Multiple drive strengths

Garry,

Use the [Model Selector] keyword.

Arpad
=================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 4:40 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Multiple drive strengths

All,
If a pad has software programmable drive strengths, how is that modeled?
Normally these strengths are fixed in the design but occasionally they
are allowed to be manipulated by the OEM to customize their design.
Thanks Garry Felker

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:13:18 -0700
From: "Scott McMorrow" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Multiple drive strengths

Garry,

They are handled with the IBIS Model Selector.

scott

[email-masked] wrote:

>All,
>If a pad has software programmable drive strengths, how is that modeled?
>Normally these strengths are fixed in the design but occasionally they are
>allowed to be manipulated by the OEM to customize their design.
>Thanks
>Garry Felker
>
>
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>
>  
>

- -- 
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 239-5536
http://www.teraspeed.com

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:44:09 -0400
From: "Todd Westerhoff" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die termination

Hi all,

This one has been bugging us for a while ... the discussions that took place
last week gave us the opportunity to take another look at this problem and
its different components.  I have two solutions to propose, and would
appreciate feedback from the group.

I apologize in advance for a lengthy email.  There's no other way I know to
describe the different components of the problem and the way they interact.

To start - the problem is accurately modeling the effect of on-die input
termination, most typically pulling the signal to a value of VDDQ/2, which
would be common for HSTL and SSTL signalling.  The resistors in question (at
least in our case) were not discrete components in the package - they were
truly on-die.  Hence, the resistance varied with process and was non-linear
over the operating range.  Thus, we needed a way to extract the actual input
characteristics using the HSpice model and create the correct model in IBIS.

Simple enough, we thought - then it got deep.

To ended up breaking the problem down into three pieces -

1) The IBIS Specification
2) The process of creating models
3) How IBIS simulators use the data in the IBIS models

1) The IBIS Specification
- -------------------------
Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the IBIS Spec doesn't
list any "standard" for the voltage range over which the behavior of the
[GND Clamp] and [POWER Clamp] should be specified.  I took it as a given
that [Pulldown] and [Pullup] curves would range from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ, and,
until last week, I would have expected to see the same range for the power
and ground clamps.  That turned out not to be the case.

I also suspect that the IBIS spec has no comment on just how the simulator
is supposed to combine the data in the two clamp curves, should the points
overlap.  That turned out to be a big sticking point.

2) The process of creating models
- ---------------------------------
There are two classes of people who create IBIS models from HSpice
simulations:

a) The gurus, who understand IBIS, HSpice and software well enough to
develop their own tools for extracting and compiling IBIS model data, and

b) The rest of us, who use some version of s2ibis2.  Usually, it's one we've
compiled ourselves, with some collection of fixes implemented for problems
we have found on our own.  I'm going to aim my comments squarely at s2ibis2,
with the assumption that's what most of the IBIS-modelmakers are basing
their efforts on.

When s2ibis2 was created, the developer noticed an interesting problem -
there is really no good way to separate the ground clamp curve from the
power clamp curve.  With the [Pullup] and [Pulldown] curves, you can isolate
the behavior of transistor from the other by virtue of the output state.
However, if you model the input buffer and sweep the voltage from -VDDQ to
2*VDDQ, there's really no good way to separate the one clamp curve from the
other.

(When I talk about voltage from this point on, I'm going to use ground as a
reference, unless I specifically state that I'm using a power-based voltage
reference "a la IBIS".  I'm also going to assume the ground clamp is active
between -VDDQ and 0V, the "operating region" for the device is between 0V
and VDDQ, and the power clamp is active between VDDQ and 2*VDDQ).

Of course, if you've got a normal input (without termination), the input
current is zero (or essentially so) throughout the operating region, so
there isn't really any problem.  It doesn't much matter where the ground
clamp curve leaves off and the power clamp curve kicks in, because the
currents at those points are always zero.

However, the presence of on-die termination to VDDQ/2 presents an
interesting problem.  The "zero current" point is somewhere in the middle of
the operating region, and it's only a single point.  The power and ground
clamp curves, when added together, have to accurately represent the input's
characteristic throughout the device's operating region (0 to VDDQ), if you
want to input to behave properly.

So now the question becomes - where does one curve leave off, and the other
begin?  Well, s2ibis2 simply implements the ground clamp curve from -VDDQ to
VDDQ, and the power clamp curve from VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.  In theory, you should
be able to just attach the two curves together and get the right result - or
at least, that's the assumption s2ibis2 seems to be operating on.  Remember,
because the power clamp curve in IBIS is rail-referenced, a sweep from VDDQ
to 2*VDDQ shows up in the IBIS file as from 0 to -VDDQ.

There are a couple of interesting caveats here.  First, s2ibis2 ground clamp
curves actually all end at the same point, which is the [typ] value of VDDQ.
Let's assume that we have an HSTL 1.5 driver, whose power rail can vary by
10%.  Thus, the [min] power rail is 1.35V, while the [max] power rail is
1.65V.  In this case, the ground clamp data ends at 1.5V in all three cases.

The power clamp curves have the same issue, but in reverse.  They are
supposed to sweep from VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.  That's 0 to -VDDQ in IBIS terms (the
curves really go from -VDDQ to 0 in the IBIS data, because voltages are
supposed to increase).  However, all three curves start at the same point,
which is 2*VDDQ[typ] (-VDDQ[typ] in IBISese), and end at the same point,
which is 0V.

But - and this is a big one - because the power clamp curves are
rail-referenced, 0V means different things in the different cases.  It means
1.35V for [min], 1.5V for [typ] and 1.65V for [max].  So - if we adjust for
the rail reference and talk about ground-referenced voltages, the voltage
data points for the power clamp curves range from:

[min] 1.35V to 2.85V
[typ] 1.5V to 3.0V
[max] 1.65V to 3.15V

Let's set those side by side with the ground clamp curves and see what we
get:

      Ground Clamp             Power Clamp
[min] -1.5V to 1.5V            1.35V to 2.85V
[typ] -1.5V to 1.5V            1.5V to 3.0V
[max] -1.5V to 1.5V            1.65V to 3.15V

The [typ] curves complement each other just fine, but there is an overlap in
the [min] data and a gap in the [max] data.  We're primarily concerned about
capturing the behavior of the input termination across the entire operating
region here, so this looks like it might be a problem.  Of course, that is
determined by how the simulator handles the situation where the clamp V-I
curves overlap or have a gap in them.  We didn't expect what we found,
however.

3) How IBIS simulators use the data in the IBIS models
- ------------------------------------------------------
Different simulators may well do different things, and I'm not trying to say
I've tested all of them.  At least some of them, if not all of them, behave
as I'm describing here.

We suspected an IBIS simulator might "double count" the current in the
overlap region in the [min]case (between 1.35V and 1.5V), thereby making the
termination appear twice as strong as it really was (in that region).  We
didn't know what was going to happen in the [max] case, with a cap in the
data between 1.5 and 1.65V.  So - we read the models in and tested them.

What we found, empirically, is that the simulator didn't add the curves
together the way you might expect - taking the data from the ground clamp
curve between -VDDQ and VDDQ, and the data from the power clamp curve
between VDDQ and 2*VDDQ.  Instead, the simulator *extended each curve by
extrapolation* to cover the entire region from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ, and *THEN*
added the currents together.  In other words, the power clamp curve (which,
at the "IBIS 0V" point, corresponding to VDDQ, has a slope of roughly the
termination value) got extended through the whole operating region with a
slope roughly equal to the termination value.  Now, when the simulator added
the contributions of the power and ground clamps in the operating region, it
came up with roughly twice the correct current, making the termination
appear twice as strong as it really was.  We started out thinking there
might be a small problem in the gap/overlap regions of the [max/min] curves,
and discovered instead that none of the simulation cases were working
correctly, anywhere in the operating region.

This is a classic case of compartmentalization and assumptions - between
IBIS, s2ibis2 and the IBIS simulators.  Bottom line, the basic assumption
was that clamps don't kick in until you go beyond the rail, and the overall
process falls apart in this case as a result.

4) What we can do about it
- --------------------------
Again, I'm predicating this on the use of s2ibis2 to create IBIS models.
The goal is simple: create an IBIS model that accurately reproduces the
combined behavior of the clamps and input termination over the range
from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.

Both proposals both rely on the same basis: having s2ibis2 perform a single
input V-I sweep, over the voltage range from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.  That one
simulation would capture all the behavior we're concerned about here.  From
there, it's just a matter of how you format the data.

Proposal 1) Says that you put the whole kit & kaboodle into the [GND Clamp]
curve and omit the [POWER Clamp] curve entirely.  There's really only one
composite input characteristic, anyway; separating it into two sets of clamp
curves is artificial.  Having two curves provides benefits in some cases,
but it's hard to argue that those benefits apply here.  This is the easiest
solution to implement, and provides the composite curve in one place.  The
downside is that some users might object to having the power clamp data
included in the [GND Clamp] curve, and that some simulation tools might also
have a problem with this.  A simulation tool that used a different technique
for combining the curve data might very well have a problem with this
approach.

Proposal 2) ... which Arpad suggested, was to find the zero-current point in
each of the min-typ-max cases, and assign all negative current to the ground
clamp, and all positive current to the power clamp.  You need to make sure
that each clamp curve has two consecutive voltage data points with zero
current at the correct end of the curve (so that all further points are zero
current by extrapolation).  You also need to do the proper voltage
translations when assigning current to the power clamp curve.  The advantage
of this technique is that you end up with two sets of clamp curves as most
people expect, and they add together correctly.  This disadvantage is a
slight increase in process complexity, and the fact that you probably won't
be able to view the overall input behavior in one place.  Interestingly, the
IBIS-viewer/model-editor tools seem to allow you to view the combined V-I
characteristics of the output buffers, but don't provide for viewing the
combined characteristics of the power and ground clamp curves on an input.

.... so there you have it - s2ibis2 and input termination modeling in IBIS,
as I presently understand it.  Corrections to my reasoning, comments and
thoughts on the subject are both welcome and greatly appreciated.

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:03:37 +0200
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
- --=_alternative 0026F777C1256D20_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear all,

I think I mailed my question too early since I subscribed to the user 
group at the same time. So I'll post it again, please see below.

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334
- ----- Forwarded by Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS on 05/08/03 09:03 AM 
- -----

Erik van der Ven
05/06/03 02:01 PM

        To:     [email-masked]
        cc: 
        Subject:        (lv)pecl
        Classification: Unclassified

1. How can I make an IBIS model of a (LV)PECL model?
2. What does an IBIS simulator do with the model type information (like 
output_ECL)?

Can anyone help me?
Thanks.

With kind regards,

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334

- --=_alternative 0026F777C1256D20_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear all,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think I mailed my question too early since I subscribed to the user group at the same time. So I'll post it again, please see below.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS on 05/08/03 09:03 AM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Erik van der Ven</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/06/03 02:01 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[email-masked]</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(lv)pecl</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Unclassified</font>
<br></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">1. How can I make an IBIS model of a (LV)PECL model?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2. What does an IBIS simulator do with the model type information (like output_ECL)?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Can anyone help me?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">With kind regards,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font>
<br>
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Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:48:12 -0700
From: "Scott McMorrow" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die termination

Todd,

So who says you're not the guru now?

scott

p.s. - I vote for proposal 1, since it's easier.  Personally I do not 
care what people expect as long as the answer is correct.

Todd Westerhoff wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>This one has been bugging us for a while ... the discussions that took place
>last week gave us the opportunity to take another look at this problem and
>its different components.  I have two solutions to propose, and would
>appreciate feedback from the group.
>
>I apologize in advance for a lengthy email.  There's no other way I know to
>describe the different components of the problem and the way they interact.
>
>To start - the problem is accurately modeling the effect of on-die input
>termination, most typically pulling the signal to a value of VDDQ/2, which
>would be common for HSTL and SSTL signalling.  The resistors in question (at
>least in our case) were not discrete components in the package - they were
>truly on-die.  Hence, the resistance varied with process and was non-linear
>over the operating range.  Thus, we needed a way to extract the actual input
>characteristics using the HSpice model and create the correct model in IBIS.
>
>Simple enough, we thought - then it got deep.
>
>To ended up breaking the problem down into three pieces -
>
>1) The IBIS Specification
>2) The process of creating models
>3) How IBIS simulators use the data in the IBIS models
>
>
>1) The IBIS Specification
>-------------------------
>Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the IBIS Spec doesn't
>list any "standard" for the voltage range over which the behavior of the
>[GND Clamp] and [POWER Clamp] should be specified.  I took it as a given
>that [Pulldown] and [Pullup] curves would range from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ, and,
>until last week, I would have expected to see the same range for the power
>and ground clamps.  That turned out not to be the case.
>
>I also suspect that the IBIS spec has no comment on just how the simulator
>is supposed to combine the data in the two clamp curves, should the points
>overlap.  That turned out to be a big sticking point.
>
>
>2) The process of creating models
>---------------------------------
>There are two classes of people who create IBIS models from HSpice
>simulations:
>
>a) The gurus, who understand IBIS, HSpice and software well enough to
>develop their own tools for extracting and compiling IBIS model data, and
>
>b) The rest of us, who use some version of s2ibis2.  Usually, it's one we've
>compiled ourselves, with some collection of fixes implemented for problems
>we have found on our own.  I'm going to aim my comments squarely at s2ibis2,
>with the assumption that's what most of the IBIS-modelmakers are basing
>their efforts on.
>
>When s2ibis2 was created, the developer noticed an interesting problem -
>there is really no good way to separate the ground clamp curve from the
>power clamp curve.  With the [Pullup] and [Pulldown] curves, you can isolate
>the behavior of transistor from the other by virtue of the output state.
>However, if you model the input buffer and sweep the voltage from -VDDQ to
>2*VDDQ, there's really no good way to separate the one clamp curve from the
>other.
>
>(When I talk about voltage from this point on, I'm going to use ground as a
>reference, unless I specifically state that I'm using a power-based voltage
>reference "a la IBIS".  I'm also going to assume the ground clamp is active
>between -VDDQ and 0V, the "operating region" for the device is between 0V
>and VDDQ, and the power clamp is active between VDDQ and 2*VDDQ).
>
>Of course, if you've got a normal input (without termination), the input
>current is zero (or essentially so) throughout the operating region, so
>there isn't really any problem.  It doesn't much matter where the ground
>clamp curve leaves off and the power clamp curve kicks in, because the
>currents at those points are always zero.
>
>However, the presence of on-die termination to VDDQ/2 presents an
>interesting problem.  The "zero current" point is somewhere in the middle of
>the operating region, and it's only a single point.  The power and ground
>clamp curves, when added together, have to accurately represent the input's
>characteristic throughout the device's operating region (0 to VDDQ), if you
>want to input to behave properly.
>
>So now the question becomes - where does one curve leave off, and the other
>begin?  Well, s2ibis2 simply implements the ground clamp curve from -VDDQ to
>VDDQ, and the power clamp curve from VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.  In theory, you should
>be able to just attach the two curves together and get the right result - or
>at least, that's the assumption s2ibis2 seems to be operating on.  Remember,
>because the power clamp curve in IBIS is rail-referenced, a sweep from VDDQ
>to 2*VDDQ shows up in the IBIS file as from 0 to -VDDQ.
>
>There are a couple of interesting caveats here.  First, s2ibis2 ground clamp
>curves actually all end at the same point, which is the [typ] value of VDDQ.
>Let's assume that we have an HSTL 1.5 driver, whose power rail can vary by
>10%.  Thus, the [min] power rail is 1.35V, while the [max] power rail is
>1.65V.  In this case, the ground clamp data ends at 1.5V in all three cases.
>
>The power clamp curves have the same issue, but in reverse.  They are
>supposed to sweep from VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.  That's 0 to -VDDQ in IBIS terms (the
>curves really go from -VDDQ to 0 in the IBIS data, because voltages are
>supposed to increase).  However, all three curves start at the same point,
>which is 2*VDDQ[typ] (-VDDQ[typ] in IBISese), and end at the same point,
>which is 0V.
>
>But - and this is a big one - because the power clamp curves are
>rail-referenced, 0V means different things in the different cases.  It means
>1.35V for [min], 1.5V for [typ] and 1.65V for [max].  So - if we adjust for
>the rail reference and talk about ground-referenced voltages, the voltage
>data points for the power clamp curves range from:
>
>[min] 1.35V to 2.85V
>[typ] 1.5V to 3.0V
>[max] 1.65V to 3.15V
>
>Let's set those side by side with the ground clamp curves and see what we
>get:
>
>      Ground Clamp             Power Clamp
>[min] -1.5V to 1.5V            1.35V to 2.85V
>[typ] -1.5V to 1.5V            1.5V to 3.0V
>[max] -1.5V to 1.5V            1.65V to 3.15V
>
>The [typ] curves complement each other just fine, but there is an overlap in
>the [min] data and a gap in the [max] data.  We're primarily concerned about
>capturing the behavior of the input termination across the entire operating
>region here, so this looks like it might be a problem.  Of course, that is
>determined by how the simulator handles the situation where the clamp V-I
>curves overlap or have a gap in them.  We didn't expect what we found,
>however.
>
>
>3) How IBIS simulators use the data in the IBIS models
>------------------------------------------------------
>Different simulators may well do different things, and I'm not trying to say
>I've tested all of them.  At least some of them, if not all of them, behave
>as I'm describing here.
>
>We suspected an IBIS simulator might "double count" the current in the
>overlap region in the [min]case (between 1.35V and 1.5V), thereby making the
>termination appear twice as strong as it really was (in that region).  We
>didn't know what was going to happen in the [max] case, with a cap in the
>data between 1.5 and 1.65V.  So - we read the models in and tested them.
>
>What we found, empirically, is that the simulator didn't add the curves
>together the way you might expect - taking the data from the ground clamp
>curve between -VDDQ and VDDQ, and the data from the power clamp curve
>between VDDQ and 2*VDDQ.  Instead, the simulator *extended each curve by
>extrapolation* to cover the entire region from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ, and *THEN*
>added the currents together.  In other words, the power clamp curve (which,
>at the "IBIS 0V" point, corresponding to VDDQ, has a slope of roughly the
>termination value) got extended through the whole operating region with a
>slope roughly equal to the termination value.  Now, when the simulator added
>the contributions of the power and ground clamps in the operating region, it
>came up with roughly twice the correct current, making the termination
>appear twice as strong as it really was.  We started out thinking there
>might be a small problem in the gap/overlap regions of the [max/min] curves,
>and discovered instead that none of the simulation cases were working
>correctly, anywhere in the operating region.
>
>This is a classic case of compartmentalization and assumptions - between
>IBIS, s2ibis2 and the IBIS simulators.  Bottom line, the basic assumption
>was that clamps don't kick in until you go beyond the rail, and the overall
>process falls apart in this case as a result.
>
>
>4) What we can do about it
>--------------------------
>Again, I'm predicating this on the use of s2ibis2 to create IBIS models.
>The goal is simple: create an IBIS model that accurately reproduces the
>combined behavior of the clamps and input termination over the range
>from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.
>
>Both proposals both rely on the same basis: having s2ibis2 perform a single
>input V-I sweep, over the voltage range from -VDDQ to 2*VDDQ.  That one
>simulation would capture all the behavior we're concerned about here.  From
>there, it's just a matter of how you format the data.
>
>Proposal 1) Says that you put the whole kit & kaboodle into the [GND Clamp]
>curve and omit the [POWER Clamp] curve entirely.  There's really only one
>composite input characteristic, anyway; separating it into two sets of clamp
>curves is artificial.  Having two curves provides benefits in some cases,
>but it's hard to argue that those benefits apply here.  This is the easiest
>solution to implement, and provides the composite curve in one place.  The
>downside is that some users might object to having the power clamp data
>included in the [GND Clamp] curve, and that some simulation tools might also
>have a problem with this.  A simulation tool that used a different technique
>for combining the curve data might very well have a problem with this
>approach.
>
>Proposal 2) ... which Arpad suggested, was to find the zero-current point in
>each of the min-typ-max cases, and assign all negative current to the ground
>clamp, and all positive current to the power clamp.  You need to make sure
>that each clamp curve has two consecutive voltage data points with zero
>current at the correct end of the curve (so that all further points are zero
>current by extrapolation).  You also need to do the proper voltage
>translations when assigning current to the power clamp curve.  The advantage
>of this technique is that you end up with two sets of clamp curves as most
>people expect, and they add together correctly.  This disadvantage is a
>slight increase in process complexity, and the fact that you probably won't
>be able to view the overall input behavior in one place.  Interestingly, the
>IBIS-viewer/model-editor tools seem to allow you to view the combined V-I
>characteristics of the output buffers, but don't provide for viewing the
>combined characteristics of the power and ground clamp curves on an input.
>
>.... so there you have it - s2ibis2 and input termination modeling in IBIS,
>as I presently understand it.  Corrections to my reasoning, comments and
>thoughts on the subject are both welcome and greatly appreciated.
>
>
>Todd.
>
>Todd Westerhoff
>High Speed Design Specialist
>Cisco Systems
>1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
>email:[email-masked]
>ph: 978-936-2149
>============================================
>
>"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
> Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"
>
>- Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"
>
>
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- -- 
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 239-5536
http://www.teraspeed.com

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End of ibis-users V1 #21
************************