Subject: ibis-users V1 #23
From: owner-ibis-users@ (ibis-users)
To: [email-masked]

ibis-users           Wednesday, May 14 2003           Volume 01 : Number 023

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:44:14 +0200
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

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Dear Fred,

Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I 
just sent (directed to Tom).

The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the 
program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from the 
"garbage" that both programs produce).
Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is 
this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.

When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be 
very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore. 
What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If 
not, what is done with this information.
I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be 
disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). Also 
here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this 
information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such that 
even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside the 
supply range.

With kind regards,

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334

Fred Balistreri <[email-masked]>
Sent by: 
[email-masked]
05/09/03 07:10 PM

        To:     Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2
        cc: 
        Subject:        Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl
        Classification: 

Erik, you need to define what convention you are
using when you say voltage range. Remember that
for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown
reference is the same. If the voltage range
you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your
range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions
for ECL or PECL type Vtable= Vcc - Vout.
This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.
IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the
range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the
IBIS rules then the range should always be
0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.
Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output
for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the
output.

I don't quite understand your problem. You state
garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive 
enough to understand your issue. Although the
meaning is clear.

Best Regards,
 
[email-masked] wrote:
> 
>    Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

- -- 
Fred Balistreri
[email-masked]

http://www.apsimtech.com

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear Fred,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I just sent (directed to Tom).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from the &quot;garbage&quot; that both programs produce).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore. What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If not, what is done with this information.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such that even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside the supply range.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">With kind regards,</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Fred Balistreri &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[email-masked]</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/09/03 07:10 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Erik, you need to define what convention you are<br>
using when you say voltage range. Remember that<br>
for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown<br>
reference is the same. If the voltage range<br>
you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your<br>
range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions<br>
for ECL or PECL type Vtable= Vcc - Vout.<br>
This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.<br>
IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the<br>
range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the<br>
IBIS rules then the range should always be<br>
0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.<br>
Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output<br>
for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the<br>
output.<br>
<br>
I don't quite understand your problem. You state<br>
garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive <br>
enough to understand your issue. Although the<br>
meaning is clear.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
 <br>
[email-masked] wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)<br>
<br>
- -- <br>
Fred Balistreri<br>
[email-masked]<br>
<br>
http://www.apsimtech.com<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:41:02 -0700
From: "Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

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Erik

Fred is right that for an ECL model that the voltage range that has to be
characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V range in the table.  I like to see
at least the active region between 0 and Vcc modeled.  There are some ECL
parts that will not be adequately characterized by only going from 0 to
Vcc - 2V.  If I remember correctly ON Semi makes some ECL line drivers that
have about twice the swing of normal ECL.

Fred, the garbage Erik referred to was multiple lines in the tables that
have the same voltage values and zero current.  I've seen  models with this
before but I don't remember the cause of it.

Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into the clamp regions for characterization.
If your clamp currents are extreme it is likely that the clamp diodes have
not been properly characterized in their SPICE models.  If you are seeing
more than a few amperes in the clamps you can assume the intrinsic
resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not been fully characterized.
To eliminate this try adding a few hundred milli Ohms in series with the
clamps to bring the currents down to a more realistic level.

Tom Dagostino

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC

2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division

Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane

                                   Beaverton, OR 97008

http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065

[email-masked]
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
[email-masked]
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:44 AM
  To: [email-masked]
  Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

  Dear Fred,

  Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I
just sent (directed to Tom).

  The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the
program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from the
"garbage" that both programs produce).
  Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is
this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.

  When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be
very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore.
What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If not,
what is done with this information.
  I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be
disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). Also
here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this
information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such that
even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside the
supply range.

  With kind regards,

  Ir. Erik van der Ven
  Room DB1032
  Business Line Networking Infrastructure
  Philips Semiconductors BV
  Gerstweg 2
  6534 AE Nijmegen
  The Netherlands
  Phone: +31-24-3534334

        Fred Balistreri <[email-masked]>
        Sent by:
        [email-masked]

        05/09/03 07:10 PM

                To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2
                cc:
                Subject:        Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl
                Classification:

  Erik, you need to define what convention you are
  using when you say voltage range. Remember that
  for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown
  reference is the same. If the voltage range
  you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your
  range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions
  for ECL or PECL type Vtable= Vcc - Vout.
  This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.
  IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the
  range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the
  IBIS rules then the range should always be
  0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.
  Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output
  for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the
  output.

  I don't quite understand your problem. You state
  garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive
  enough to understand your issue. Although the
  meaning is clear.

  Best Regards,

  [email-masked] wrote:
  >
  >    Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

  --
  Fred Balistreri
  [email-masked]

  http://www.apsimtech.com

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charset=3Dus-ascii">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4923.2500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Erik</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Fred=20
is right that for an ECL model that the voltage range that has to be=20
characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V range in the table.&nbsp; I like =
to see=20
at least the active region between 0 and Vcc modeled.&nbsp; There are =
some ECL=20
parts that will not be adequately characterized by only going from 0 to =
Vcc -=20
2V.&nbsp; If I remember correctly ON Semi makes some ECL line drivers =
that have=20
about twice the swing of normal ECL.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Fred,=20
the garbage Erik referred to was multiple lines in the tables that have =
the same=20
voltage values and zero current.&nbsp; I've seen&nbsp; models with this =
before=20
but I don't remember the cause of it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355560816-12052003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Yes,=20
IBIS likely goes too far into the clamp regions for =
characterization.&nbsp; If=20
your clamp currents are extreme it is likely that the clamp diodes have =
not been=20
properly characterized in their SPICE models.&nbsp; If you are seeing =
more than=20
a few amperes in the clamps you can assume the intrinsic resistance of =
the=20
diodes, the metal, etc. have not been fully characterized.&nbsp; To =
eliminate=20
this try adding a few hundred milli Ohms in series with the clamps to =
bring the=20
currents down to a more realistic level.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P class=3Dsection1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">Tom=20
Dagostino</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dsection1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">Teraspeed=20
Consulting Group LLC <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;</SPAN>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dsection1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">2926 SE=20
Yamhill St.&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>Device=20
Modeling Division</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dsection1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">Portland,=20
OR 97214&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>13610=20
SW Harness Lane</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dsection1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Beaverton, OR 97008</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dsection1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">http://www.teraspeed.com&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>503-430-1065 </FONT></P><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">[email-masked]</FONT></SPAN>=20
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>[email-masked]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May =
12,=20
  2003 1:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[email-masked]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
  [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D2>Dear Fred,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>Thank you for=20
  your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I just sent=20
  (directed to Tom).</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>The =
s2ibis=20
  program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the program that =
has=20
  been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from the "garbage" =
that both=20
  programs produce).</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Is this =
range=20
  enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is this range =
for=20
  ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.</FONT> =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>When the voltage is out of the normal =
operating range=20
  the currents can be very high, even so high that the transistor models =
are not=20
  valid anymore. What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they =
be left=20
  out? If not, what is done with this information.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I have the same question for the clamp =
currents. The=20
  output can be disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really =
high=20
  impedant). Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is =
done with=20
  this information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is =
such=20
  that even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be =
outside the=20
  supply range.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>With =
kind=20
  regards,</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Ir. =
Erik van der=20
  Ven<BR>Room DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking =
Infrastructure<BR>Philips=20
  Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The=20
  Netherlands<BR>Phone: +31-24-3534334</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width=3D"100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
      <TD>
      <TD><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>Fred =
Balistreri=20
        &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT>=20
        <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Sent by: </FONT><BR><FONT=20
        face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>[email-masked]</FONT>=20
        <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/09/03 07:10 PM</FONT> =
<BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
        face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
        &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
        face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
        &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
        &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: =
[IBIS-Users]=20
        (lv)pecl</FONT>=20
        <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
        Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT>=20
  <BR></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D2>Erik,=20
  you need to define what convention you are<BR>using when you say =
voltage=20
  range. Remember that<BR>for ECL and PECL both the pullup and=20
  pulldown<BR>reference is the same. If the voltage range<BR>you refer =
to is the=20
  IBIS Vtable then your<BR>range is not correct. Under the IBIS=20
  conventions<BR>for ECL or PECL type Vtable=3D Vcc - Vout.<BR>This is =
true for=20
  both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.<BR>IBIS further explains that for =
ECL, PECL=20
  the<BR>range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the<BR>IBIS rules then =
the range=20
  should always be<BR>0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and =
pulldown.<BR>Note that 0=20
  really means 3.3 at the output<BR>for your case and 2.2 really means =
1.1 at=20
  the<BR>output.<BR><BR>I don't quite understand your problem. You=20
  state<BR>garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive <BR>enough to =
understand=20
  your issue. Although the<BR>meaning is clear.<BR><BR><BR>Best=20
  Regards,<BR><BR>[email-masked] wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
&nbsp;=20
  &nbsp;Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)<BR><BR>-- <BR>Fred=20
  =
Balistreri<BR>[email-masked]<BR><BR>http://www.apsimtech.com<BR></FON=
T><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:58:17 -0700
From: "Angulo, John" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die termination

Yes, Todd.  Hyperlynx 7.0 uses linear extrapolation from the last two points of the tables.

John Angulo
Hyperlynx Products
Mentor Graphics Corp.
[email-masked]
425-869-2320

- -----Original Message-----
From: Todd Westerhoff [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 2:33 PM
To: 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die termination

Thanks, John!

Can I therefore assume Hyperlynx treats the power clamp curve the way I
described - by extrapolating the endpoint/slope across the operating region?

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High Speed Design Specialist
Cisco Systems
1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
email:[email-masked]
ph: 978-936-2149
============================================

"When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
 Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"

- - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Angulo, John
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 4:49 PM
To: 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die
termination

Kim, Todd et al.,

The predominant behavior you've found in simulators is based on the
following idea: the [Pullup], [Pulldown], [POWER Clamp] and [GND Clamp] I-V
tables provide characteristics for four independent elements, each connected
between the buffer die pad and a supply rail.  Therefore, by KCL, the net
I-V characteristic must be a superposition of all four (of course, you only
worry about one of the [Pullup] and [Pulldown] curves at DC).

The IBIS parser follows this convention when it adds the I-V tables together
in search of I-V/V-T data inconsistencies.

Treating the I-V tables as parameterizations of independent elements with
definite power supply connections allows for ground bounce simulations.

s2ibis2, however, in dumping the DC sweep data from -VDDQ to VDDQ into the
[GND Clamp] and VDDQ to 2*VDDQ into the [POWER Clamp], is treating the clamp
tables as two halves of a single underlying element.  This disagrees with
the IBIS parser and limits the potential for simulation of power effects.

So merging the clamp characteristics into one rather than adding them in
parallel would not only mean changing multiple simulators, but also changing
the IBIS parser and loosing some modeling capability.  In an effort to avoid
leaving those on-die termination models which already follow the parser and
work with existing simulators high and dry, we might try to examine the
clamp curves and guess which convention they were meant to follow.  But this
would probably be too much complexity.  Herbert's method for pulling out the
pullup and pulldown resistors and placing them into the appropriate clamp
curves as independent elements is a good "band-aid".  Fixing the spice2ibis
process would be the ultimate solution.

John Angulo
Hyperlynx Products
Mentor Graphics Corp.
[email-masked]
425-869-2320

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kim Helliwell [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 11:15 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: 'Todd Westerhoff'; 'Ibis-Users (E-mail)'
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die termination

Tom:

I completely agree with making the models correct.
Todd was answering my earlier question of what to
do when a vendor supplied model is NOT correct.
For that case, a band aid is needed, particularly when
the vendor is recalcitrant about fixing the model...

On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 10:19  AM, Tom Dagostino wrote:

> This sounds like a band aid, not a solution.  Let's make the models
> correct
> and not double count the currents.
>
> Tom Dagostino
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
> Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
>                                    Beaverton, OR 97008
> http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065
> [email-masked]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 8:06 AM
> To: Ibis-Users (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Modeling input receivers with on-die
> termination
>
>
> Kim, et al,
>
> I'm a little surprised that none of the tool vendors have checked in
> by this
> point.  I've had users tell me what the different tools do, but no
> word from
> the tool-makers themselves.
>
> It seems to me the rub is that s2ibis2 assumes the clamp curves will be
> "added" one way (which is backed up, at least partially, by the IBIS
> spec,
> as noted by Stephen) - and the simulators do something else by
> extrapolating
> the power clamp curve.  Simply put, s2ibis2 assumes that clamp current
> should be zero if voltage point is not specified in the particular
> clamp
> curve - the simulators do not.
>
> There is a different algorithm the simulators could use to avoid double
> counting with the existing models:
>
> 1. Check the input voltage
> 2. If the input voltage, <=VDDQ, look at the ground clamp curve first.
>    Otherwise, look at the power clamp curve first.
> 3. If the voltage point exists in the curve you're looking at, use the
>    corresponding entry for the current.  Done. (this takes care out
>    double-counting and the overlap case)
> 4. If the voltage point does not exist in the first curve, check the
> second.
>    If the voltage point exists, take the corresponding current value.
> Done.
> 5. Only when the voltage point exists in neither curve (the gap case),
> extend
>    each curve by extrapolation to find the current at the point in
> question.
>    This will provide two (potentially slightly different) current
> values -
>    use the average of the two.
>
> If the simulators worked this way, we wouldn't have to change s2ibis2
> at all
> (or, so it seems to me).  The proposal 1 technique from my original
> mail
> would still work, but proposal 2 would need to be modified so that the
> individual curves ended once they hit the zero current point.
>
> Todd.
>
> Todd Westerhoff
> High Speed Design Specialist
> Cisco Systems
> 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719
> email:[email-masked]
> ph: 978-936-2149
> ============================================
>
> "When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake?
>  Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste"
>
> - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time"
>
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>
Kim Helliwell
Apple Computer
[email-masked]
408 974 9936

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:33:41 -0600
From: rrwolff <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] [IBIS] Open forum minutes (05/09/03)

DATE: 05/12/03

SUBJECT: May 9, 2003 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes

VOTING MEMBERS AND 2003 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
Ansoft Corporation             (Eric Bracken)
Apple Computer                 Kim Helliwell
Applied Simulation Technology  Fred Balistreri
Cadence Design                 Lynne Green*
Cisco Systems                  Syed Huq, Val Mandruson, Hung Pham 
Cypress Semiconductor          (Rajesh Manapat)
Fairchild Semiconductor        (Graham Connolly)
Hitachi ULSI Systems           Kazuyoshi Shoji
Huawei Technologies            (Jiang Xiang Zhong)
IBM                            (Pravin Patel)
Intel Corporation              Stephen Peters*, Michael Mirmak*,
                               Arpad Muranyi*, Eric Magnusson*
LSI Logic                      Frank Gasparik
Matsushita (Panasonic)         Atsuji Ito
Mentor Graphics                [Bob Ross], Ian Dodd*, Guy de Burgh*,
                               John Angulo*, Mike Donnelly, Weston Beal 
Micron Technology              Randy Wolff*
Mitsubishi                     (Pat Hefferan)
Molex Incorporated             Gus Panella
Motorola                       (Rick Kingen)
National Semiconductor         [Milt Schwartz], [Tim Coyle]
NEC Electric Corporation       (Itsuki Yamada)
North East Systems Associates  Edward Sayre 
Philips Semiconductor          (D.C. Sessions), Stephanie Goedecke
Quantic EMC                    (Mike Ventham)
Siemens (& Automotive) AG      Eckhard Lenski, Michael Kindij, 
                               Burkhard Muller, Katja Koller, 
                               Andre Goerisch, Manfred Maurer, 
                               Bernard Unger, Amir Motamedi, 
                               Hartmut Ibowski, Gerald Bannert
Signal Integrity Software      Bob Haller*, Barry Katz, Doug Burns
Sigrity                        [Raj Raghuram]
SiQual                         (Rob Hinz)
Texas Instruments              Thomas Fisher
Teraspeed                      Scott McMorrow, Tom Dagostino,
                               Kevin Simpson, Bob Ross
Time Domain Analysis Systems   Dima Smolyansky, Steve Corey
Via Technologies               (Weber Chuang)
Zuken (& Incases)              Michael Schaeder, Ralf Bruning,

OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2003:
Agilent Technologies           Herbert Lage
Brocade                        Frank Yuan, Yongrue Yu
Conexant                       Gary Felker
EADS CCR                       Alix de la Villeguerin
EFM                            Ekkehard Miersch
EMC Corporation                Brian Arsenault
Fraunhofer IZM                 Ege Engin
Fujitsu                        Tadashi Arai
GEIA                           (Chris Denham)
Independent                    Kelly Green, Luca Giacotto
Infineon Tech AG               Christian Sporrer
Marvell Semiconductor          Itzik Peleg
NetLogic Microsystems          Eric Hsu
Plexus                         Joseph Socha
Politechnico de Torino         Igor Stievano
Sintecs BV                     Hans Klos, Bob te Nijenhuis
Sun Microsystems               Tim Coyle*
Xilinx                         Susan Wu

In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.  Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. 
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.

Upcoming Meetings:  The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are 
as follows:

  Date                Bridge Number    Reservation #    Passcode
  May 30, 2003        (916) 356-2663        1           2873560

All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time.  We try to have agendas 
out 7 days before each Open Forum, and meeting minutes out within 7 days 
after.  When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted 
by Stephen Peters and give the reservation number and passcode.

NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.

- -------------------------------- MINUTES -----------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
The IBIS Open Forum welcomed first time caller Eric Magnusson from Intel
Corp. Eric is a validation engineer in the flash memory division of Intel
and is responsible for IBIS model creation. 

CALL FOR PATENTS
Stephen Peters called for any patents or pending patents related to the 
IBIS Version 4.0 Standard. No companies declared a patent.

MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Stephen Peters reported that he has received from EIA an updated balance
sheet through March as well as an updated ledger report.  According to the
latest report, paid membership remains at 16 members, which is down signifi-
cantly from last year at this time. GEIA has sent out a reminder letter to
those who have not paid their dues yet, and Stephen will begin the process
of following up with members individually. Stephen stated that if a company
has not paid its dues by mid-June we would begin the process of removing
their name from the voting member list on the minutes.

REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The April 18, 2003 minutes were approved without changes.

ARs will be discussed during the meeting.

MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
None.

PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Stephen Peters announced that Bob Ross will be at the the Signal
Propagation on Interconnects (SPI2003) workshop as a keynote speaker on
"IBIS Present and Future" on Wednesday, May 14, 2003.

Stephen Peters reported that Syed Huq is making ongoing updates to the IBIS
roster and upcoming events links. 

NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
None.

OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None.

INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuit Electromagnetic Model Proposal
  (formerly, IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - No report.
- - JEDEC Activity Report. Nothing to report.

DAC2003 MEETING PLANNING
Stephen Peters reported that planning continues for the June 5, 2003 IBIS 
summit meeting, which will be held in conjunction with DAC2003 in Anaheim, 
California at the Anaheim Marriot hotel. Lynne Green has posted the second 
announcement to the reflector. Stephen also noted that attendees should 
sign up with Guy de Burgh and start making their travel arrangements. 
Finally, Stephen announced that he will be attending the summit.

John Angulo reported on the final cost proposal for the meeting. Assuming
20 attendees, the cost for the meeting space and lunch will be approximately
$1,600. The meal will be a chicken and pasta dish, and Stephen noted that
if an attendee wishes a vegetarian meal, they should note this when they 
register for the summit. John stated that he needs a final head count for 
meals three days prior to the meeting. John also inquired how the billing 
will be handled. Stephen will follow-up with Chris Denham at GEIA and see 
if GEIA can be billed directly.

Guy de Burgh indicated that he will supply an LCD projector. Stephen noted
that after consultation with Arpad Muranyi, and considering the additional
cost and the fact that Stephen can attend in person, the decision was made
to not telecast the meeting.

Stephen noted that the following presentations are planned (titles are 
tentative). 

IBIS Status Update, Stephen Peters (Intel Corp)
Behavioral VHDL-AMS I/O buffer model using IBIS, Arpad Muranyi (Intel Corp)  
Quality Committee Update, Barry Katz (SiSoft)
Observations on Problems Encountered, Atsuji Ito (Panasonic) 
ICM Status and Update, Michael Mirmak (Intel Corp.)
 
In addition to presentations and discussion we will also be conducting
the annual election of officers.  The current slate of nominees and their 
positions are:

Chair           Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
Vice-Chair      Lynne Green, Cadence
Secretary       Randy Wolff, Micron
Librarian       Roy Leventhal, Leventhal Design and Communications
Webmaster       Syed Huq, Cisco
Postmaster      John Angulo, Mentor

Additional nominations are being accepted for all positions. E-mail nominee
names to Stephen Peters. Nominations will also be accepted at the summit
meeting.

DESIGNCON2003 EAST MEETING PLANNING
Stephen Peters reported that planning for an IBIS summit meeting at 
Designcon2003 East continues. The summit is scheduled for 
June 23, 2003 in the Royal Plaza Hotel in Marlborough, Massachusetts, and 
Sisoft is a co-sponsor, along with IBIS. The meeting room is yet to be 
determined. Stephen noted that we are also a co-sponsor of DesignCon2003 
East. Barry Katz from SiSoft is serving as the contact for registration and 
sign-up, so if you are planning on attending please let Barry know. Stephen 
mentioned that we have traded refreshments for a telephone line so that the 
meeting can be web telecast. It is expected that presentations given at the
DAC2003 Summit will also be given at this meeting.  

It was noted that we will need to obtain an LCD projector for the room at
DAC. Stephen will inquire with potential attendees. Finally, Stephen noted
that the first meeting announcement has been posted to the reflector and 
that a second announcement should follow in the coming weeks.

IBIS VERSION 4.0 PARSER FUNDING AND STATUS
Stephen Peters is still awaiting confirmation from GEIA that they have 
received the payment from Huawei.  This brings the total companies that
have paid to six, with three more pending.

Stephen also reported that Atul Agarwal is ready to send an alpha release of
the parser to John Angulo and Matthew Flora for initial testing. This alpha
release will include all the IBIS 4.0 BIRDs with the exception of BIRD70, 
Golden Waveforms ([Test Load] and [Test Data] keywords). Arpad Muranyi would
also like a copy of the source code for testing.

IBIS VERSION 4.1 DISCUSSION
Stephen Peters introduced the first discussion of IBIS version 4.1 by
listing the BIRDS that have been approved since IBIS 4.0 was voted on. These
BIRDS are as follows:
  BIRD 75.8 - Multi Lingual Modeling Support
  BIRD 77.2 - Differential subparameter additions 
  BIRD 78.1 - comment line length limit
  BIRD 80.1 - Add External Reference Column to Pin Mapping Keyword
  BIRD 81.1 - Clarify Usage Rules for [Pin] I/O Model Assignment

There are also several minor editorial corrections that will be included.
Stephen noted that he expects a draft copy of IBIS 4.1 to be 
available on the IBIS web page within the next week or so. Stephen asked
those in attendance to review the document when it is released.  The plan
is to have the first formal reading of the specification at the May 30, 2003
meeting.

IBIS QUALITY COMMITTEE
Bob Haller reported on the IBIS Quality Committee meetings held on April 22,
2003 and May 6, 2003. Attendance remains stable.  The committee is 
continuing to work its way through the model section of the quality 
document, focusing on I-V table issues and checks. The next meeting is
scheduled for May 20.

IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE
Lynne Green reported that they have received and distributed models from
both Fairchild and Phillips.

NEW ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES
None.

IBIS FUTURES AND CONNECTOR WORKING GROUP REPORT
Stephen Peters reported that the IBIS connector working group met on April 
24, 2003 and again on May 8, 2003. All outstanding editorial issues have 
been dealt with, but much e-mail has been exchanged on a larger technical
issue of ICM and Touchstone file support for mixed-mode s-parameters. The
connector working group resolved the issue by removing language that
prohibited mixed-mode s-parameter representations from appearing in the
Touchstone data file, with the caveat that Touchstone files currently
have no defined mixed-mode s-parameter data format.

A final draft version of the ICM specification has been released, and
after a final review by the connector working group, it is expected to
be posted on the IBIS web site by Friday, May 16, 2003 for review by the
IBIS Open Forum. 

BIRD74.3 - EMI Parameters
Guy de Burgh opened the discussion on BIRD74.3 by noting the changes from
the previous version. The [Family] keyword was removed, the keyword 
[Voltage Range] was changed to [Signal Swing], a subparameter for 
clock division was added, and several syntax issues were addressed.

Guy then queried the group on how they expect to extract signal swing
from the existing V-T tables. Guy will take this discussion offline with
Arpad Muranyi.  Stephen asked how signal swing was defined if the buffer
included pre-emphasis.  Guy replied that at the current level of accuracy
the exact pre-emphasis or de-emphasis voltage swing does not make much of
a difference. 

In response to a comment from the last teleconference, Guy explained how to
handle cases in which a component heat sink was optional.  The [Heatsink 
Capacitance] keyword is optional, therefore if the keyword is present the 
heatsink is assumed attached, else if the keyword is not present, then the 
heatsink is assumed not present. 

Stephen Peters noted several IBIS syntax issues dealing with keywords and 
subparameters.  Stephen will provide corrections to Guy offline.

Finally, Guy noted that he has been persuaded to remove from this BIRD
keywords that deal specifically with connectors, with the expectation 
that they would then be proposed for inclusion in a later revision of the
ICM specification. Stephen replied that he was agreement with this.

Guy will issue BIRD74.4 with the noted changes for discussion at the next
teleconference.

NEW TECHNICAL DISCUSSIONS
Stephen Peters asked for comments on the recent mail reflector discussion
regarding extracting clamp information for receivers with on-die
termination. It was noted that one part of the solution to properly
modeling on-die termination in receivers is to provide data over the full
- -POWER to 2*POWER range, rather than the more restrictive range called out
by the IBIS specification. Arpad Muranyi noted that he teaches his students
to extract clamp data over the extended range. Bob Haller remarked that
there is confusion between the IBIS cookbook and the specification in
regards to clamp summing. The proper method is to sum both the [GND clamp]
and [POWER Clamp] tables to the individual [Pullup] and [Pulldown] tables,
but neither the specification or cookbook explicitly says this. Arpad
suggests reading the IBIS specification again and propose clarifying
language if necessary to make sure the additive nature of the clamp
tables is specified. It was also noted that text is needed that states that
the current GND and POWER ranges are a minimum, and that larger ranges are 
acceptable and may be needed for properly modeling receivers with on-die
termination. 

Finally, Arpad offered to do a presentation on modeling receivers with 
on-die termination at the upcoming DAC summit meeting.  Stephen would
also like to see a BIRD that would add the clarifying language cited above.

IBISCHK3 & BUG TRACKING STATUS
John Angulo reported that there has been no progress on prototyping the
fix for BUG73, "Extreme Non-monotonic I-V Tables Cause End Point Test to 
Fail". John will pursue this further when he receives the prototype 
IBIS 4.0 parser from Atul Agarwal.

- - BUG71 - Monotonic Checking for Combined I-V Tables
  Bob Haller reported that the corrected I-V table has been posted to the 
  BUG data base. He then asked if the proposed "summed curve" monotonic
  checks should replace the current individual checks. Stephen Peters 
  replied that he would like to see the proposed checks replace the current
  checks. The questions was asked about what kind of interpolation between 
  tables - linear or spline - should be used. After discussion the consensus
  was to use linear.  With this settled BUG71 was assigned a status
  of 'Will Be Fixed'. 

NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting is scheduled for May 30, 2003 from 8:00
AM to 10:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time.
============================================================================
                               NOTES

IBIS CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-1831
            [email-masked]
            Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
            M/S JF4-215
            2111 NE 25th Ave.
            Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961

VICE CHAIR: Lynne Green (425) 788-0412, Fax: (425) 788-4289
            [email-masked]
            Senior Modeling Engineer, Cadence Design Systems
            20 120th Ave NE, Suite 103, Bellevue, WA 98005-3016

SECRETARY:  Randy Wolff (208) 363-1764, Fax: (208) 368-3475
            [email-masked]
            Simulation Engineer, Micron Technology, Inc.
            8000 S. Federal Way
            Mail Stop: 711
            Boise, ID 83707-0006
        
LIBRARIAN:  Roy Leventhal (847) 590-9398
            [email-masked]
            Consultant, Leventhal Design and Communications
            1924 North Burke Drive
            Arlington Heights, Illinois 60004

WEBMASTER:  Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
            [email-masked]
            Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems
            170 West Tasman Drive
            San Jose, CA 95134-1706

POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 497-5077, Fax: (425) 881-1008
            [email-masked]
            Development Engineer, Mentor Graphics
            14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200
            Redmond, WA 98052

This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA 
Manual of Organization and Procedure.

The following e-mail addresses are used:

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      /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively.

Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS 
models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic 
Information Group under:

  http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm

Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous 
discussions and results.  You can get on via FTP anonymous.

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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:25:36 -0400
From: Timothy Coyle <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Validating IBIS Inputs

Hello,
I'm curious as to how other people validate an IBIS input buffer with a ground clamp and power clamp curve to the original 
SPICE netlist. If I run a simulation of a driver and receiver with a transmission line, and then a driver with a transmission
line and a lumped capacitor load, I get almost the same result. (Assuming a properly made IBIS file) The power and ground clamp
curves only turn on below Reference Ground or above supply voltage. So if I have an input going into my input buffer that has overshoot
then should I see my powerclamp curve turn on? What types of tests do people do to validate that the clamps are behaving as expected?
(And feel free to inform me on what the expected behavior of the clamps should be) 

Thanks in advance,

Tim
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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:49:50 +0200
From: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
- --=_alternative 0030B147C1256D25_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As Tom and Fred suggest I have to add "some" resistance to the clamp 
diodes to prevent high currents. Must these device models be characterised 
or should I just add an arbitrary value. If so what will be the value of 
this information. I still don't have the insight what an IBIS simulator 
does do with the clamping info? 

With kind regards,

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>
05/12/03 06:41 PM
Please respond to tom

        To:     Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2
<[email-masked]>
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl
        Classification: 

Erik
 
Fred is right that for an ECL model that the voltage range that has to be 
characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V range in the table.  I like to see 
at least the active region between 0 and Vcc modeled.  There are some ECL 
parts that will not be adequately characterized by only going from 0 to 
Vcc - 2V.  If I remember correctly ON Semi makes some ECL line drivers 
that have about twice the swing of normal ECL.
 
Fred, the garbage Erik referred to was multiple lines in the tables that 
have the same voltage values and zero current.  I've seen  models with 
this before but I don't remember the cause of it.
 
Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into the clamp regions for characterization. 
 If your clamp currents are extreme it is likely that the clamp diodes 
have not been properly characterized in their SPICE models.  If you are 
seeing more than a few amperes in the clamps you can assume the intrinsic 
resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not been fully 
characterized.  To eliminate this try adding a few hundred milli Ohms in 
series with the clamps to bring the currents down to a more realistic 
level.
 
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
[email-masked] 
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:44 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Dear Fred, 

Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I 
just sent (directed to Tom). 

The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the 
program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from the 
"garbage" that both programs produce). 
Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is 
this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification. 

When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be 
very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore. 
What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If 
not, what is done with this information. 
I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be 
disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). Also 
here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this 
information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such that 
even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside the 
supply range. 

With kind regards, 

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334 

Fred Balistreri <[email-masked]> 
Sent by: 
[email-masked] 
05/09/03 07:10 PM 
        
        To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2 
        cc:         
        Subject:        Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl 
        Classification:         

Erik, you need to define what convention you are
using when you say voltage range. Remember that
for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown
reference is the same. If the voltage range
you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your
range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions
for ECL or PECL type Vtable= Vcc - Vout.
This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.
IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the
range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the
IBIS rules then the range should always be
0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.
Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output
for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the
output.

I don't quite understand your problem. You state
garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive 
enough to understand your issue. Although the
meaning is clear.

Best Regards,

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
>    Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

- -- 
Fred Balistreri
[email-masked]

http://www.apsimtech.com

- --=_alternative 0030B147C1256D25_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As Tom and Fred suggest I have to add &quot;some&quot; resistance to the clamp diodes to prevent high currents. Must these device models be characterised or should I just add an arbitrary value. If so what will be the value of this information. I still don't have the insight what an IBIS simulator does do with the clamping info? </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">With kind regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tom Dagostino&quot; &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/12/03 06:41 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tom</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2<br>
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Erik</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Fred is right that for an ECL model that the voltage range that has to be characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V range in the table. &nbsp;I like to see at least the active region between 0 and Vcc modeled. &nbsp;There are some ECL parts that will not be adequately characterized by only going from 0 to Vcc - 2V. &nbsp;If I remember correctly ON Semi makes some ECL line drivers that have about twice the swing of normal ECL.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Fred, the garbage Erik referred to was multiple lines in the tables that have the same voltage values and zero current. &nbsp;I've seen &nbsp;models with this before but I don't remember the cause of it.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into the clamp regions for characterization. &nbsp;If your clamp currents are extreme it is likely that the clamp diodes have not been properly characterized in their SPICE models. &nbsp;If you are seeing more than a few amperes in the clamps you can assume the intrinsic resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not been fully characterized. &nbsp;To eliminate this try adding a few hundred milli Ohms in series with the clamps to bring the currents down to a more realistic level.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Tom Dagostino</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">2926 SE Yamhill St. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 503-430-1065 </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier New">[email-masked]</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]<b>On Behalf Of </b>[email-masked]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, May 12, 2003 1:44 AM<b><br>
To:</b> [email-masked]<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Dear Fred,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I just sent (directed to Tom).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from the &quot;garbage&quot; that both programs produce).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore. What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If not, what is done with this information.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such that even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside the supply range.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
With kind regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=42%><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b><br>
Fred Balistreri &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: <br>
[email-masked]</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/09/03 07:10 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=55%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font></table>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Erik, you need to define what convention you are<br>
using when you say voltage range. Remember that<br>
for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown<br>
reference is the same. If the voltage range<br>
you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your<br>
range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions<br>
for ECL or PECL type Vtable= Vcc - Vout.<br>
This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.<br>
IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the<br>
range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the<br>
IBIS rules then the range should always be<br>
0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.<br>
Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output<br>
for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the<br>
output.<br>
<br>
I don't quite understand your problem. You state<br>
garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive <br>
enough to understand your issue. Although the<br>
meaning is clear.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
[email-masked] wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)<br>
<br>
- -- <br>
Fred Balistreri<br>
[email-masked]<br>
<br>
http://www.apsimtech.com</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font>
<p>
<p>
- --=_alternative 0030B147C1256D25_=--
|------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email [email-masked]
|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:42:10 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3196E.99415B00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,
=20
Forgot to answer your question on how to obtain the value.
If your SPICE model doesn't have this resistive property
included, you will have to measure it in the lab.  Using
an IV curve tracer you need to sweep the buffer so that
the diodes turn on, and then get the slope of the linear
portion of the clamp.  That should be your resistance
value.
=20
Arpad
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
- -----Original Message-----
From: Muranyi, Arpad=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 9:37 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Eric,
=20
The question is not so much what the IBIS simulator does with the
clamp information, but what is the function of the clamps in real
life?  If you understand the second part, you will also understand
the first.
=20
The short answer is that it will clip signals that go beyond the
rails, hence the name "clamp".  Regarding the resistance question,
usually the problem is that SPICE models do not include the resistive
properties of the diodes, so you get an ideal diode with no series
resistance.  This resistance is usually in the low Ohms, but it
depends on the design.  If you have a SPICE model that uses ideal
diodes, you can add a small value resistor in series with the diode
to avoid those high currents.
=20
Arpad
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
=20
=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 1:50 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

As Tom and Fred suggest I have to add "some" resistance to the clamp =
diodes to prevent high currents. Must these device models be =
characterised or should I just add an arbitrary value. If so what will =
be the value of this information. I still don't have the insight what an =
IBIS simulator does do with the clamping info?=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>=20

05/12/03 06:41 PM=20
Please respond to tom=20

       =20
        To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2
<[email-masked]>=20
        cc:        =20
        Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

Erik=20
 =20
Fred is right that for an ECL model that the voltage range that has to =
be characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V range in the table.  I like =
to see at least the active region between 0 and Vcc modeled.  There are =
some ECL parts that will not be adequately characterized by only going =
from 0 to Vcc - 2V.  If I remember correctly ON Semi makes some ECL line =
drivers that have about twice the swing of normal ECL.=20
 =20
Fred, the garbage Erik referred to was multiple lines in the tables that =
have the same voltage values and zero current.  I've seen  models with =
this before but I don't remember the cause of it.=20
 =20
Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into the clamp regions for =
characterization.  If your clamp currents are extreme it is likely that =
the clamp diodes have not been properly characterized in their SPICE =
models.  If you are seeing more than a few amperes in the clamps you can =
assume the intrinsic resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not =
been fully characterized.  To eliminate this try adding a few hundred =
milli Ohms in series with the clamps to bring the currents down to a =
more realistic level.=20
 =20
Tom Dagostino=20
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division=20
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane=20
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008=20
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065=20

[email-masked]=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of =
[email-masked]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:44 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Dear Fred,=20

Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email =
I just sent (directed to Tom).=20

The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the =
program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from =
the "garbage" that both programs produce).=20
Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is =
this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.=20

When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can =
be very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid =
anymore. What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left =
out? If not, what is done with this information.=20
I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be =
disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). =
Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this =
information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such =
that even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be =
outside the supply range.=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

Fred Balistreri <[email-masked]>=20

Sent by:=20
[email-masked]=20

05/09/03 07:10 PM=20

       =20
       To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2=20
       cc:        =20
       Subject:        Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

Erik, you need to define what convention you are
using when you say voltage range. Remember that
for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown
reference is the same. If the voltage range
you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your
range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions
for ECL or PECL type Vtable=3D Vcc - Vout.
This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.
IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the
range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the
IBIS rules then the range should always be
0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.
Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output
for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the
output.

I don't quite understand your problem. You state
garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive=20
enough to understand your issue. Although the
meaning is clear.

Best Regards,

[email-masked] wrote:
>=20
>    Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

- --=20
Fred Balistreri
[email-masked]

http://www.apsimtech.com

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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003>Eric,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D679433916-13052003>Forgot to=20
answer your question on how to obtain the value.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D679433916-13052003>If your=20
SPICE model doesn't have this resistive property</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D679433916-13052003>included,=20
you will have to measure it in the lab.&nbsp; Using</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D679433916-13052003>an IV curve=20
tracer you need to sweep the buffer so that</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D679433916-13052003>the diodes=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003>turn on, and then get the slope of the=20
linear</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D679433916-13052003>portion of=20
the clamp.&nbsp; That should be your resistance</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003>value.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003>Arpad</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D679433916-13052003>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</SPAN></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Muranyi, Arpad=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 13, 2003 9:37 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[email-masked]<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>Eric,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>The=20
question&nbsp;is not so much what the IBIS simulator does with=20
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>clamp=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>information, but what is the function of the =
clamps in=20
real</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>life?&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>If=20
you understand the second part, you will also =
understand</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>the=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>first.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>The short=20
answer is that it will clip signals that go beyond =
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>rails, hence=20
the name "clamp".&nbsp; Regarding the resistance =
question,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>usually the=20
problem is that SPICE models do not include the =
resistive</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>properties=20
of the diodes, so you get an ideal diode with no =
series</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>resistance.&nbsp; This resistance is usually =
in the low=20
Ohms, but it</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>depends on=20
the design.&nbsp; If you have a SPICE model that uses =
ideal</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>diodes, you=20
can add a small value resistor in series with the =
diode</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>to avoid=20
those high currents.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>Arpad</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 13, =
2003 1:50=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [email-masked]<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>As Tom =
and Fred=20
suggest I have to add "some" resistance to the clamp diodes to prevent =
high=20
currents. Must these device models be characterised or should I just add =
an=20
arbitrary value. If so what will be the value of this information. I =
still don't=20
have the insight what an IBIS simulator does do with the clamping info?=20
</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>With kind =
regards,</FONT>=20
<BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Ir. Erik van der =
Ven<BR>Room=20
DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking Infrastructure<BR>Philips =
Semiconductors=20
BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone:=20
+31-24-3534334</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD>
    <TD><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>"Tom =
Dagostino"=20
      &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/12/03 06:41 PM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please respond to tom</FONT> <BR></P>
    <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der=20
      =
Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2<BR>&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</FONT>=20
      <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
cc: &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] =

      (lv)pecl</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT>=20
<BR></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
size=3D2>Erik</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Fred is right that for an =
ECL model that=20
the voltage range that has to be characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V =
range=20
in the table. &nbsp;I like to see at least the active region between 0 =
and Vcc=20
modeled. &nbsp;There are some ECL parts that will not be adequately=20
characterized by only going from 0 to Vcc - 2V. &nbsp;If I remember =
correctly ON=20
Semi makes some ECL line drivers that have about twice the swing of =
normal=20
ECL.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Fred, the garbage Erik referred to =
was multiple=20
lines in the tables that have the same voltage values and zero current.=20
&nbsp;I've seen &nbsp;models with this before but I don't remember the =
cause of=20
it.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into =
the clamp=20
regions for characterization. &nbsp;If your clamp currents are extreme =
it is=20
likely that the clamp diodes have not been properly characterized in =
their SPICE=20
models. &nbsp;If you are seeing more than a few amperes in the clamps =
you can=20
assume the intrinsic resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not =
been=20
fully characterized. &nbsp;To eliminate this try adding a few hundred =
milli Ohms=20
in series with the clamps to bring the currents down to a more realistic =

level.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>Tom Dagostino</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed =
Consulting Group=20
LLC</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>2926 SE Yamhill St. =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</FONT> =

<BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3>http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
503-430-1065=20
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2>-----Original=20
Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> [email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>[email-masked]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, May 12, 2003 =
1:44=20
AM<B><BR>To:</B> [email-masked]<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: =
[IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Dear =
Fred,</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Thank=20
you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I just =
sent=20
(directed to Tom).</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>The s2ibis program does not generate IV- =
tables from=20
0-2.2V, but the program that has been modified by my collegue does do =
this=20
(apart from the "garbage" that both programs produce).</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Is this=20
range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is this =
range for=20
ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>When=20
the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be =
very high,=20
even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore. What is =
the use=20
of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If not, what is done =
with=20
this information.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>I have the same question for the clamp =
currents. The=20
output can be disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high=20
impedant). Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done =
with=20
this information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is =
such that=20
even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside =
the supply=20
range.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>With kind regards,</FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Ir. =
Erik van der=20
Ven<BR>Room DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking Infrastructure<BR>Philips =

Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The =
Netherlands<BR>Phone:=20
+31-24-3534334</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR><BR></FONT>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"2%">
    <TD width=3D"42%"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
      size=3D3><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1><B><BR>Fred=20
      Balistreri &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Sent by:=20
      <BR>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D3>=20
      </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/09/03 07:10 PM</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT></P>
    <TD width=3D"55%"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;To:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der=20
      Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;cc:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [IBIS-Users]=20
      (lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2><BR>Erik, you need to define what convention you are<BR>using =
when you=20
say voltage range. Remember that<BR>for ECL and PECL both the pullup and =

pulldown<BR>reference is the same. If the voltage range<BR>you refer to =
is the=20
IBIS Vtable then your<BR>range is not correct. Under the IBIS =
conventions<BR>for=20
ECL or PECL type Vtable=3D Vcc - Vout.<BR>This is true for both =
pullup/pulldown=20
for PECL/ECL.<BR>IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the<BR>range =
should be=20
VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the<BR>IBIS rules then the range should always =
be<BR>0 -=20
2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.<BR>Note that 0 really means 3.3 =
at the=20
output<BR>for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at =
the<BR>output.<BR><BR>I=20
don't quite understand your problem. You state<BR>garbage. It's probably =
not=20
quite descriptive <BR>enough to understand your issue. Although =
the<BR>meaning=20
is clear.<BR><BR><BR>Best Regards,<BR><BR>[email-masked]=20
wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Part 1.1Type: Plain Text=20
(text/plain)<BR><BR>-- <BR>Fred=20
Balistreri<BR>[email-masked]<BR><BR>http://www.apsimtech.com</FONT><F=
ONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT>
<P>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:37:27 -0700
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3196D.F0909926
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,
=20
The question is not so much what the IBIS simulator does with the
clamp information, but what is the function of the clamps in real
life?  If you understand the second part, you will also understand
the first.
=20
The short answer is that it will clip signals that go beyond the
rails, hence the name "clamp".  Regarding the resistance question,
usually the problem is that SPICE models do not include the resistive
properties of the diodes, so you get an ideal diode with no series
resistance.  This resistance is usually in the low Ohms, but it
depends on the design.  If you have a SPICE model that uses ideal
diodes, you can add a small value resistor in series with the diode
to avoid those high currents.
=20
Arpad
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
=20
=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 1:50 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

As Tom and Fred suggest I have to add "some" resistance to the clamp =
diodes to prevent high currents. Must these device models be =
characterised or should I just add an arbitrary value. If so what will =
be the value of this information. I still don't have the insight what an =
IBIS simulator does do with the clamping info?=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>=20

05/12/03 06:41 PM=20
Please respond to tom=20

       =20
        To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2
<[email-masked]>=20
        cc:        =20
        Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

Erik=20
 =20
Fred is right that for an ECL model that the voltage range that has to =
be characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V range in the table.  I like =
to see at least the active region between 0 and Vcc modeled.  There are =
some ECL parts that will not be adequately characterized by only going =
from 0 to Vcc - 2V.  If I remember correctly ON Semi makes some ECL line =
drivers that have about twice the swing of normal ECL.=20
 =20
Fred, the garbage Erik referred to was multiple lines in the tables that =
have the same voltage values and zero current.  I've seen  models with =
this before but I don't remember the cause of it.=20
 =20
Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into the clamp regions for =
characterization.  If your clamp currents are extreme it is likely that =
the clamp diodes have not been properly characterized in their SPICE =
models.  If you are seeing more than a few amperes in the clamps you can =
assume the intrinsic resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not =
been fully characterized.  To eliminate this try adding a few hundred =
milli Ohms in series with the clamps to bring the currents down to a =
more realistic level.=20
 =20
Tom Dagostino=20
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division=20
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane=20
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008=20
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065=20

[email-masked]=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of =
[email-masked]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:44 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Dear Fred,=20

Thank you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email =
I just sent (directed to Tom).=20

The s2ibis program does not generate IV- tables from 0-2.2V, but the =
program that has been modified by my collegue does do this (apart from =
the "garbage" that both programs produce).=20
Is this range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is =
this range for ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.=20

When the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can =
be very high, even so high that the transistor models are not valid =
anymore. What is the use of specifying these currents? Can they be left =
out? If not, what is done with this information.=20
I have the same question for the clamp currents. The output can be =
disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high impedant). =
Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done with this =
information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is such =
that even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be =
outside the supply range.=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

Fred Balistreri <[email-masked]>=20

Sent by:=20
[email-masked]=20

05/09/03 07:10 PM=20

       =20
       To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2=20
       cc:        =20
       Subject:        Re: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

Erik, you need to define what convention you are
using when you say voltage range. Remember that
for ECL and PECL both the pullup and pulldown
reference is the same. If the voltage range
you refer to is the IBIS Vtable then your
range is not correct. Under the IBIS conventions
for ECL or PECL type Vtable=3D Vcc - Vout.
This is true for both pullup/pulldown for PECL/ECL.
IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the
range should be VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the
IBIS rules then the range should always be
0 - 2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.
Note that 0 really means 3.3 at the output
for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at the
output.

I don't quite understand your problem. You state
garbage. It's probably not quite descriptive=20
enough to understand your issue. Although the
meaning is clear.

Best Regards,

[email-masked] wrote:
>=20
>    Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

- --=20
Fred Balistreri
[email-masked]

http://www.apsimtech.com

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>Eric,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>The=20
question&nbsp;is not so much what the IBIS simulator does with=20
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>clamp=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>information, but what is the function of the =
clamps in=20
real</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>life?&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>If=20
you understand the second part, you will also =
understand</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>the=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>first.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>The short=20
answer is that it will clip signals that go beyond =
the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>rails, hence=20
the name "clamp".&nbsp; Regarding the resistance =
question,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>usually the=20
problem is that SPICE models do not include the =
resistive</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>properties=20
of the diodes, so you get an ideal diode with no =
series</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>resistance.&nbsp; This resistance is usually =
in the low=20
Ohms, but it</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>depends on=20
the design.&nbsp; If you have a SPICE model that uses =
ideal</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>diodes, you=20
can add a small value resistor in series with the =
diode</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D866442816-13052003>to avoid=20
those high currents.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>Arpad</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D866442816-13052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 13, =
2003 1:50=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [email-masked]<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>As Tom =
and Fred=20
suggest I have to add "some" resistance to the clamp diodes to prevent =
high=20
currents. Must these device models be characterised or should I just add =
an=20
arbitrary value. If so what will be the value of this information. I =
still don't=20
have the insight what an IBIS simulator does do with the clamping info?=20
</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>With kind =
regards,</FONT>=20
<BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Ir. Erik van der =
Ven<BR>Room=20
DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking Infrastructure<BR>Philips =
Semiconductors=20
BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone:=20
+31-24-3534334</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD>
    <TD><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>"Tom =
Dagostino"=20
      &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/12/03 06:41 PM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please respond to tom</FONT> <BR></P>
    <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der=20
      =
Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2<BR>&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</FONT>=20
      <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
cc: &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] =

      (lv)pecl</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT>=20
<BR></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =

size=3D2>Erik</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Fred is right that for an =
ECL model that=20
the voltage range that has to be characterized is over the 0 to Vcc - 2V =
range=20
in the table. &nbsp;I like to see at least the active region between 0 =
and Vcc=20
modeled. &nbsp;There are some ECL parts that will not be adequately=20
characterized by only going from 0 to Vcc - 2V. &nbsp;If I remember =
correctly ON=20
Semi makes some ECL line drivers that have about twice the swing of =
normal=20
ECL.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Fred, the garbage Erik referred to =
was multiple=20
lines in the tables that have the same voltage values and zero current.=20
&nbsp;I've seen &nbsp;models with this before but I don't remember the =
cause of=20
it.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Yes, IBIS likely goes too far into =
the clamp=20
regions for characterization. &nbsp;If your clamp currents are extreme =
it is=20
likely that the clamp diodes have not been properly characterized in =
their SPICE=20
models. &nbsp;If you are seeing more than a few amperes in the clamps =
you can=20
assume the intrinsic resistance of the diodes, the metal, etc. have not =
been=20
fully characterized. &nbsp;To eliminate this try adding a few hundred =
milli Ohms=20
in series with the clamps to bring the currents down to a more realistic =

level.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>Tom Dagostino</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed =
Consulting Group=20
LLC</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>2926 SE Yamhill St. =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</FONT> =

<BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3>http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
503-430-1065=20
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2>-----Original=20
Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> [email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>[email-masked]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, May 12, 2003 =
1:44=20
AM<B><BR>To:</B> [email-masked]<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: =
[IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Dear =
Fred,</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Thank=20
you for your reply. About the garbage; I explained it in an email I just =
sent=20
(directed to Tom).</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>The s2ibis program does not generate IV- =
tables from=20
0-2.2V, but the program that has been modified by my collegue does do =
this=20
(apart from the "garbage" that both programs produce).</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Is this=20
range enough? According to Tom it should be -3.3-6.6V. Where is this =
range for=20
ECL/PECL defined? I cannot find it in the specification.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>When=20
the voltage is out of the normal operating range the currents can be =
very high,=20
even so high that the transistor models are not valid anymore. What is =
the use=20
of specifying these currents? Can they be left out? If not, what is done =
with=20
this information.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>I have the same question for the clamp =
currents. The=20
output can be disabled, so this is a kind of tri-state (not really high=20
impedant). Also here the currents are unrealistically high. What is done =
with=20
this information? Why must it be specified? The PECL voltage swing is =
such that=20
even a fully reflected signal will not cause the output to be outside =
the supply=20
range.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>With kind regards,</FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Ir. =
Erik van der=20
Ven<BR>Room DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking Infrastructure<BR>Philips =

Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The =
Netherlands<BR>Phone:=20
+31-24-3534334</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR><BR></FONT>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"2%">
    <TD width=3D"42%"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
      size=3D3><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1><B><BR>Fred=20
      Balistreri &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Sent by:=20
      <BR>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D3>=20
      </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/09/03 07:10 PM</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT></P>
    <TD width=3D"55%"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;To:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der=20
      Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;cc:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [IBIS-Users]=20
      (lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D2><BR>Erik, you need to define what convention you are<BR>using =
when you=20
say voltage range. Remember that<BR>for ECL and PECL both the pullup and =

pulldown<BR>reference is the same. If the voltage range<BR>you refer to =
is the=20
IBIS Vtable then your<BR>range is not correct. Under the IBIS =
conventions<BR>for=20
ECL or PECL type Vtable=3D Vcc - Vout.<BR>This is true for both =
pullup/pulldown=20
for PECL/ECL.<BR>IBIS further explains that for ECL, PECL the<BR>range =
should be=20
VCC - 2.2 volts. Under the<BR>IBIS rules then the range should always =
be<BR>0 -=20
2.2 volts for both pullup and pulldown.<BR>Note that 0 really means 3.3 =
at the=20
output<BR>for your case and 2.2 really means 1.1 at =
the<BR>output.<BR><BR>I=20
don't quite understand your problem. You state<BR>garbage. It's probably =
not=20
quite descriptive <BR>enough to understand your issue. Although =
the<BR>meaning=20
is clear.<BR><BR><BR>Best Regards,<BR><BR>[email-masked]=20
wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Part 1.1Type: Plain Text=20
(text/plain)<BR><BR>-- <BR>Fred=20
Balistreri<BR>[email-masked]<BR><BR>http://www.apsimtech.com</FONT><F=
ONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT>
<P>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:20:34 +0200
From: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] differential output modeling

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
- --=_alternative 003381D7C1256D25_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have some problems on how to model a differential output.
In my case it is a lvpecl output. 
The output swing is controlled by an internal feedback loop.
I noticed that when I simulate the pull-up/pull-down curves of the 
non-inverting outputs the results are dependent on the termination of the 
inverting output (resistor, voltage). 
So these outputs obviously influence each other.
So question is what to do with the output that is not being modeled?

It seems that this situation is simular to LVDS outputs.
A method that I have seen is to connect a voltage source to the inverting 
output, such  that the sum of both voltages divided by 2 equals the common 
mode voltage during normal operation.
I observe that the currents in the inverting output become very large and 
are therefore still likely to influence the result of the non-inverting 
output.
The motivation for this method was to approach behaviour during normal 
operation. But I think this is not the case, since the outputs are forced 
in a state that does not comply to the logic state as forced by the input 
signal.

Has anyone experience with this?

With kind regards,

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334
- --=_alternative 003381D7C1256D25_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I have some problems on how to model a differential output.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">In my case it is a lvpecl output. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The output swing is controlled by an internal feedback loop.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I noticed that when I simulate the pull-up/pull-down curves of the non-inverting outputs the results are dependent on the termination of the inverting output (resistor, voltage). </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">So these outputs obviously influence each other.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">So question is what to do with the output that is not being modeled?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">It seems that this situation is simular to LVDS outputs.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A method that I have seen is to connect a voltage source to the inverting output, such &nbsp;that the sum of both voltages divided by 2 equals the common mode voltage during normal operation.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I observe that the currents in the inverting output become very large and are therefore still likely to influence the result of the non-inverting output.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The motivation for this method was to approach behaviour during normal operation. But I think this is not the case, since the outputs are forced in a state that does not comply to the logic state as forced by the input signal.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Has anyone experience with this?</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">With kind regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font>
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From: [email-masked]
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Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:49:50 +0200

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:12:28 -0400
From: Robert Haller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Validating IBIS Inputs

Tim,
	One way to verify IBIS input buffer clamps is by running a simulations 
using a ideal voltage source driving through a low resistance and high 
etch impedance. i.e. Voltage source of V=Vdd, Tr = 500ps,resistor of 10 
ohms and a Tline of Zo=75 ohms/TD=4ns,and/or 1ns.

The clamps will turn on because the signal will overshoot at the end of 
the line. By utilizing ideal circuit elements you have eliminated all 
the other variables. You will also be able to validate the input 
capacitance of your receiver.

The choice of 75 ohms impedance of the transmission line is not 
critical. The impedance must be high enough to guarantee turning on the 
clamps. The combination of the driver output impedance and the 
transmission line forms a voltage divider, which defines the initial 
amplitude as the wave leaves the driver. When the wave reaches the end 
of the unterminated transmission line it doubles.

You can compare your IBIS simulations to Spice or bench or both.
For more information refer to "Constructing Accurate Behavioral Models 
of I/O Buffers" ISBN 0-933-217-47-1  Designcon98 (HPSDC).

regards.
Bob

- -- 
Robert J. Haller ([email-masked])
Principal Consultant
Signal Integrity Software Inc.
6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250
Maynard, MA 01754
Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 15

Timothy Coyle wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm curious as to how other people validate an IBIS input buffer with a ground clamp and power clamp curve to the original 
> SPICE netlist. If I run a simulation of a driver and receiver with a transmission line, and then a driver with a transmission
> line and a lumped capacitor load, I get almost the same result. (Assuming a properly made IBIS file) The power and ground clamp
> curves only turn on below Reference Ground or above supply voltage. So if I have an input going into my input buffer that has overshoot
> then should I see my powerclamp curve turn on? What types of tests do people do to validate that the clamps are behaving as expected?
> (And feel free to inform me on what the expected behavior of the clamps should be) 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Tim
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:26:36 +0530
From: "Birendra Rana" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Problem in ibs file generated by s2ibs2

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31A0F.DEC3524D
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Hi all,
=20
I have generated an IBIS Model for an I/O buffer using s2ibis2 script.
Interestingly the generated ibs file has entries in the Pull down table
as follows :
=20
[Pulldown]
|  voltage         I(typ)           I(min)             I(max)
|
     -1.80          -42.50mA     -54.11mA         -28.61mA
      .
      .
      .
     -0.90         -36.68mA     -30.62mA        -38.74mA
     -0.90         -36.68mA     -30.62mA        -38.74mA  <- Repetition
of above data
     -0.80         -37.07mA     -29.68mA        -41.00mA
      .
      .
      .
      0.00             0.36uA         2.61nA            2.86uA
      .
      .
      .
      3.60            94.05mA      80.81mA           0.11A
      0.00             -1.80A          0.11kA          -92.95A   <-
?????
 -137.28             -1.70A        -99.02A          -82.08A   <-  ?????
      3.60            94.05mA      80.81mA           0.11A     <-
Repetition of 3.60V entry data
=20
Similar kind of entries (like the repetition of -0.90V and 3.60V data
and extra 2 rows) are there in the Pullup table. The ".out" files
however look alright.
=20
Any reasons for these extra / repetitive entries ?=20
=20
Regards,
=20
Birendra=20

**************************Disclaimer************************************

Information contained in this E-MAIL being proprietary to Wipro Limited is=
=20
'privileged' and 'confidential' and intended for use only by the individual
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2713.1100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN class=
=3D499530811-14052003>Hi=20
all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN class=
=3D499530811-14052003>I have=20
generated an IBIS Model for an I/O buffer using s2ibis2 script.=
 Interestingly=20
the generated ibs file has&nbsp;entries in the Pull down table as=20
follows&nbsp;:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>[Pulldown]</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN class=
=3D499530811-14052003>|&nbsp;=20
voltage&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
I(typ)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 I(min)&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
I(max)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>|</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN class=
=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-1.80&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
- -42.50mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -54.11mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -28.61mA</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -0.90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-36.68mA&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -30.62mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 -38.74mA</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -0.90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-36.68mA&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -30.62mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -38.74mA&nbsp; &lt;-=20
Repetition of above data</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -0.80&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -37.07mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -29.68mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 -41.00mA</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
0.00&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
0.36uA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
2.61nA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
2.86uA</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 .</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
3.60&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
94.05mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
80.81mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
0.11A</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
0.00&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
- -1.80A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
0.11kA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 -92.95A&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&lt;-&nbsp; ?????</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=
=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;-137.28&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -1.70A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-99.02A&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- -82.08A&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;-&nbsp; ?????</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
3.60&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
94.05mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
80.81mA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
0.11A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- Repetition of 3.60V entry=20
data</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN class=
=3D499530811-14052003>Similar=20
kind of entries (like the repetition of -0.90V and 3.60V data and extra 2=
 rows)=20
are there in the Pullup table. The ".out" files&nbsp;however&nbsp;look=20
alright.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>Any&nbsp;reasons&nbsp;for these extra /=
 repetitive=20
entries&nbsp;? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D499530811-14052003>Birendra&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
<table><tr><td bgcolor=3D#ffffff><font color=
=3D#000000><pre>**************************Disclaimer***********************=
*************

Information contained in this E-MAIL being proprietary to Wipro Limited is=
=20
'privileged' and 'confidential' and intended for use only by the individual
 or entity to which it is addressed. You are notified that any use, copying=
=20
or dissemination of the information contained in the E-MAIL in any manner=20
whatsoever is strictly prohibited.

***************************************************************************
</pre></font></td></tr></table>
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|------------------------------------------------------------------
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|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
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|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
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|
|or email a written request to [email-masked].
|
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|
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|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/          E-mail since 1993

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:24:33 +0200
From: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
- --=_alternative 0049D849C1256D26_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tom, 

Do you need the netlist as well, or is the plain s2i file good enough for 
you? (because I cannot send you the spectre file).

Birendra seems to have a similar problem.

Alex,

I am using Spectre for simulations.

With kind regards,
Erik.

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>
05/12/03 05:53 PM
Please respond to tom

        To:     Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl
        Classification: 

I've seen some other models with this kind of issue in them from s2ibis. 
I'm not sure what causes this, it was a while ago and the half life of old 
problems is relatively short.  I would first start by looking at the input 
file that is generated.  Be sure you do not have any typos in it, that the 
voltages are correct, etc.  Send me a copy if you want and I'll take a 
look at it.
 
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
[email-masked] 
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 12:37 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Tom, 

About the garbage lines: 
I use s2ibis for model type output_ECL. 
Voltage range has been  left out (since this created a voltage source of 
1.9V to the ground node in the spectre simulation files). 
Pull-up and pull-down references have been set to 3.3V. 

The result is an IBIS file that contains a pulldown-curve starting at 1.1V 
and continuing up to 3.3V. 
Then the next voltages are: 2.05, 9 times 0V and 3.3V. Most currents are 
equal to the 3.3V current except for the max current, which is increasing 
for every line (note that I filled in the typical values for the the min 
and max cases). 

The pull-up curve ranges from 0V to 2.2V and is then followed by 10 times 
0V and 2.2V. The current for the 0V lines is always 0.000A, except for the 
first one. 

So I get some strange values and the range is from 0-2.2V instead of -3.3 
to 6.6V. 

With kind regards, 

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334 

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]> 
05/09/03 07:11 PM 
Please respond to tom 
        
        To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2 
        cc:         
        Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl 
        Classification:         

Erik 
  
In the old days (in the 60s) when Motorola first developed ECL They found 
that running ECL from 0 to -5.2 volts worked better because the ground 
planes on boards at the time was cleaner.  ECL is referenced to the most 
positive supply, thus a clean reference was important.  In those days the 
ground could have been a complete plane of the board but power was in many 
cases distributed via traces on one of the layer.  In today's modern 
circuit boards both the power and ground are distributed in planes so this 
is not an issue.   
  
The voltage difference you see is not important.  When you are running the 
SPICE simulation you just need to connect the Vcc to 3.3 and the Vee to 
ground to get the PECL model.  Remember the 50 Ohm termination needs to be 
connected to Vcc - 2 volts or 1.3 for the typical case when running the AC 
simulations. 
  
I do have concerns about the table range you are seeing.  It should be 
between -3.3 and +6.6 Volts for all the IV tables. 
  
The simulator does several things with the data.  First of all it will 
check the data to ensure it is at least consistent, has not syntax issues, 
etc.  Then, for outputs, it builds a set of coefficients that describes 
how the buffer transitions from pullup to pulldown and from pulldown to 
pullup.  This table is based on the VT waveforms and the IV curves. 
  
The output impedance of the buffer is composed of the sum of the pullup or 
pulldown IV table plus the power and ground clamps plus the component of 
C_comp. 
  
If the buffer is an input the the power and ground clamps are summed and 
put in parallel with C_comp. 
  
Because the model is designated ECL, the simulator makes one different 
calculation for the pulldown table than it does for CMOS, see below. 
  
What is the 10 lines of garbage you are seeing? 
  
Hope that helps. 
  
Tom Dagostino 
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division 
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane 
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008 
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
[email-masked] 
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 12:41 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Tom, 

Thank you for your reply. I am starting with a Spectre netlist. I have 
tried s2ibis to make a model for LVPECL. 
I noticed some differences. ECL has a supply of 0V (plus) and -5.2V (neg). 
My circuit has a supply of 3.3V (plus) and 0V (neg). 
The pulldown table ranges from 1.1V to 3.3V (the pull down reference has 
been set to 3.3V, the pull-up reference as well), followed by ten lines of 
garbage. A collegue of mine has changed to pragram a bit so the pull down 
curve starts at 0V and ends at 2.2V (still followed by ten lines of 
garbage). 
Is this a correct range? 
What does the simulator that uses the IBIS model do with the information 
that it is an output-ECL model type? And how are the data tables 
interpreted in conjunction with the ECL_model type? 

With kind regards, 

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure 
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334 

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]> 
05/08/03 07:16 PM 
Please respond to tom 
        
       To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2 
       cc:         
       Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl 
        Classification:         

Erik 
 
What are you starting with?  A SPICE description or are you going to make 
the model from measurements?  If you start with SPICE there is a spice to 
ibis program that you can download from the ibis home page.  If you are 
starting from measurements then you will need a lot of equipment to make 
the measurements.  You will have to manually convert the measurements to 
the ibis data. 
 
Simulators use the output_ecl line to know how to handle ECL.  In IBIS ECL 
models are slightly different than standard CMOS or TTL drivers.  In CMOS 
or TTL the pulldown current is sunk into the ground plane and the pullup 
current is sourced from the supply.  With PECL both the pullup and 
pulldown are sourced from the supply.  So in PECL the pulldown is 
referenced to the supply, not ground.  The simulator needs to know this 
when it is using the IV tables. 
 
Tom Dagostino 
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division 
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane 
                                  Beaverton, OR 97008 
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065 
[email-masked] 
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 12:04 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Dear all, 

I think I mailed my question too early since I subscribed to the user 
group at the same time. So I'll post it again, please see below. 

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334 
- ----- Forwarded by Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS on 05/08/03 09:03 AM 
- ----- 

Erik van der Ven 
05/06/03 02:01 PM 
        
      To:        [email-masked] 
      cc:         
      Subject:        (lv)pecl 
        Classification:        Unclassified 

1. How can I make an IBIS model of a (LV)PECL model? 
2. What does an IBIS simulator do with the model type information (like 
output_ECL)? 

Can anyone help me? 
Thanks. 

With kind regards, 

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334 

- --=_alternative 0049D849C1256D26_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Tom, </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Do you need the netlist as well, or is the plain s2i file good enough for you? (because I cannot send you the spectre file).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Birendra seems to have a similar problem.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Alex,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I am using Spectre for simulations.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">With kind regards,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Erik.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tom Dagostino&quot; &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/12/03 05:53 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tom</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">I've seen some other models with this kind of issue in them from s2ibis. &nbsp;I'm not sure what causes this, it was a while ago and the half life of old problems is relatively short. &nbsp;I would first start by looking at the input file that is generated. &nbsp;Be sure you do not have any typos in it, that the voltages are correct, etc. &nbsp;Send me a copy if you want and I'll take a look at it.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Tom Dagostino</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">2926 SE Yamhill St. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 503-430-1065 </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier New">[email-masked]</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]<b>On Behalf Of </b>[email-masked]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, May 12, 2003 12:37 AM<b><br>
To:</b> [email-masked]<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Tom, </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
About the garbage lines:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I use s2ibis for model type output_ECL.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Voltage range has been &nbsp;left out (since this created a voltage source of 1.9V to the ground node in the spectre simulation files).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Pull-up and pull-down references have been set to 3.3V.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The result is an IBIS file that contains a pulldown-curve starting at 1.1V and continuing up to 3.3V.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Then the next voltages are: 2.05, 9 times 0V and 3.3V. Most currents are equal to the 3.3V current except for the max current, which is increasing for every line (note that I filled in the typical values for the the min and max cases).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The pull-up curve ranges from 0V to 2.2V and is then followed by 10 times 0V and 2.2V. The current for the 0V lines is always 0.000A, except for the first one.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
So I get some strange values and the range is from 0-2.2V instead of -3.3 to 6.6V.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
With kind regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=43%><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b><br>
&quot;Tom Dagostino&quot; &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/09/03 07:11 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Please respond to tom</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=53%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font></table>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Erik</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
In the old days (in the 60s) when Motorola first developed ECL They found that running ECL from 0 to -5.2 volts worked better because the ground planes on boards at the time was cleaner. &nbsp;ECL is referenced to the most positive supply, thus a clean reference was important. &nbsp;In those days the ground could have been a complete plane of the board but power was in many cases distributed via traces on one of the layer. &nbsp;In today's modern circuit boards both the power and ground are distributed in planes so this is not an issue. &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
The voltage difference you see is not important. &nbsp;When you are running the SPICE simulation you just need to connect the Vcc to 3.3 and the Vee to ground to get the PECL model. &nbsp;Remember the 50 Ohm termination needs to be connected to Vcc - 2 volts or 1.3 for the typical case when running the AC simulations.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
I do have concerns about the table range you are seeing. &nbsp;It should be between -3.3 and +6.6 Volts for all the IV tables.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
The simulator does several things with the data. &nbsp;First of all it will check the data to ensure it is at least consistent, has not syntax issues, etc. &nbsp;Then, for outputs, it builds a set of coefficients that describes how the buffer transitions from pullup to pulldown and from pulldown to pullup. &nbsp;This table is based on the VT waveforms and the IV curves.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
The output impedance of the buffer is composed of the sum of the pullup or pulldown IV table plus the power and ground clamps plus the component of C_comp.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
If the buffer is an input the the power and ground clamps are summed and put in parallel with C_comp.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Because the model is designated ECL, the simulator makes one different calculation for the pulldown table than it does for CMOS, see below.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
What is the 10 lines of garbage you are seeing?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Hope that helps.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Tom Dagostino</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
2926 SE Yamhill St. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beaverton, OR 97008</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 503-430-1065 </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier New">[email-masked]</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><br>
- -----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]<b>On Behalf Of </b>[email-masked]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, May 09, 2003 12:41 AM<b><br>
To:</b> [email-masked]<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Tom,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Thank you for your reply. I am starting with a Spectre netlist. I have tried s2ibis to make a model for LVPECL.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I noticed some differences. ECL has a supply of 0V (plus) and -5.2V (neg). My circuit has a supply of 3.3V (plus) and 0V (neg).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The pulldown table ranges from 1.1V to 3.3V (the pull down reference has been set to 3.3V, the pull-up reference as well), followed by ten lines of garbage. A collegue of mine has changed to pragram a bit so the pull down curve starts at 0V and ends at 2.2V (still followed by ten lines of garbage).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Is this a correct range?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
What does the simulator that uses the IBIS model do with the information that it is an output-ECL model type? And how are the data tables interpreted in conjunction with the ECL_model type?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
With kind regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=43%><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b><br>
<br>
&quot;Tom Dagostino&quot; &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/08/03 07:16 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Please respond to tom</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=53%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font></table>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Erik</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
What are you starting with? &nbsp;A SPICE description or are you going to make the model from measurements? &nbsp;If you start with SPICE there is a spice to ibis program that you can download from the ibis home page. &nbsp;If you are starting from measurements then you will need a lot of equipment to make the measurements. &nbsp;You will have to manually convert the measurements to the ibis data.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Simulators use the output_ecl line to know how to handle ECL. &nbsp;In IBIS ECL models are slightly different than standard CMOS or TTL drivers. &nbsp;In CMOS or TTL the pulldown current is sunk into the ground plane and the pullup current is sourced from the supply. &nbsp;With PECL both the pullup and pulldown are sourced from the supply. &nbsp;So in PECL the pulldown is referenced to the supply, not ground. &nbsp;The simulator needs to know this when it is using the IV tables.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Tom Dagostino</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
2926 SE Yamhill St. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 503-430-1065 </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier New">[email-masked]</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><br>
- -----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]<b>On Behalf Of </b>[email-masked]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, May 08, 2003 12:04 AM<b><br>
To:</b> [email-masked]<b><br>
Subject:</b> [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
I think I mailed my question too early since I subscribed to the user group at the same time. So I'll post it again, please see below.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif"><br>
- ----- Forwarded by Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS on 05/08/03 09:03 AM -----</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=4%>
<td width=34%><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b><br>
<br>
<br>
Erik van der Ven</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/06/03 02:01 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=60%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[email-masked]</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(lv)pecl</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Unclassified</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font></table>
<p><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
1. How can I make an IBIS model of a (LV)PECL model?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
2. What does an IBIS simulator do with the model type information (like output_ECL)?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Can anyone help me?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Thanks.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
With kind regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Ir. Erik van der Ven<br>
Room DB1032<br>
Business Line Networking Infrastructure<br>
Philips Semiconductors BV<br>
Gerstweg 2<br>
6534 AE Nijmegen<br>
The Netherlands<br>
Phone: +31-24-3534334</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p>
<p>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:49:36 +0200
From: "Henrik G. Madsen" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Relating to garbage lines
=20
We are using the s2ibis2 (windows version) and having similar problems. =
They starts when the supply voltage is reduced below 3.3 V and gets =
worse and worse as the supply voltage drops. So the issue is worse for =
1.8 V models than 2.5 V models etc.
=20
I brought up the issue around a year ago on the list with no replies.
=20
The Spice results files are OK, so the problems relates to the way that =
s2ibis2 reads them.
The 'workaround' we use it to extract the missing/erronous points from =
the simulation files and adding them to the IBIS file manually.
=20
Regards
/Henrik G Madsen
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 14. maj 2003 15:25
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Tom,=20

Do you need the netlist as well, or is the plain s2i file good enough =
for you? (because I cannot send you the spectre file).=20

Birendra seems to have a similar problem.=20

Alex,=20

I am using Spectre for simulations.=20

With kind regards,=20
Erik.=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>=20

05/12/03 05:53 PM=20
Please respond to tom=20

       =20
        To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2=20
        cc:        =20
        Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

I've seen some other models with this kind of issue in them from s2ibis. =
 I'm not sure what causes this, it was a while ago and the half life of =
old problems is relatively short.  I would first start by looking at the =
input file that is generated.  Be sure you do not have any typos in it, =
that the voltages are correct, etc.  Send me a copy if you want and I'll =
take a look at it.=20
 =20
Tom Dagostino=20
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division=20
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane=20
                                   Beaverton, OR 97008=20
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065=20

[email-masked]=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of =
[email-masked]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 12:37 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Tom,=20

About the garbage lines:=20
I use s2ibis for model type output_ECL.=20
Voltage range has been  left out (since this created a voltage source of =
1.9V to the ground node in the spectre simulation files).=20
Pull-up and pull-down references have been set to 3.3V.=20

The result is an IBIS file that contains a pulldown-curve starting at =
1.1V and continuing up to 3.3V.=20
Then the next voltages are: 2.05, 9 times 0V and 3.3V. Most currents are =
equal to the 3.3V current except for the max current, which is =
increasing for every line (note that I filled in the typical values for =
the the min and max cases).=20

The pull-up curve ranges from 0V to 2.2V and is then followed by 10 =
times 0V and 2.2V. The current for the 0V lines is always 0.000A, except =
for the first one.=20

So I get some strange values and the range is from 0-2.2V instead of =
- -3.3 to 6.6V.=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>=20

05/09/03 07:11 PM=20
Please respond to tom=20

       =20
       To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2=20
       cc:        =20
       Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

Erik=20
=20
In the old days (in the 60s) when Motorola first developed ECL They =
found that running ECL from 0 to -5.2 volts worked better because the =
ground planes on boards at the time was cleaner.  ECL is referenced to =
the most positive supply, thus a clean reference was important.  In =
those days the ground could have been a complete plane of the board but =
power was in many cases distributed via traces on one of the layer.  In =
today's modern circuit boards both the power and ground are distributed =
in planes so this is not an issue.  =20
=20
The voltage difference you see is not important.  When you are running =
the SPICE simulation you just need to connect the Vcc to 3.3 and the Vee =
to ground to get the PECL model.  Remember the 50 Ohm termination needs =
to be connected to Vcc - 2 volts or 1.3 for the typical case when =
running the AC simulations.=20
=20
I do have concerns about the table range you are seeing.  It should be =
between -3.3 and +6.6 Volts for all the IV tables.=20
=20
The simulator does several things with the data.  First of all it will =
check the data to ensure it is at least consistent, has not syntax =
issues, etc.  Then, for outputs, it builds a set of coefficients that =
describes how the buffer transitions from pullup to pulldown and from =
pulldown to pullup.  This table is based on the VT waveforms and the IV =
curves.=20
=20
The output impedance of the buffer is composed of the sum of the pullup =
or pulldown IV table plus the power and ground clamps plus the component =
of C_comp.=20
=20
If the buffer is an input the the power and ground clamps are summed and =
put in parallel with C_comp.=20
=20
Because the model is designated ECL, the simulator makes one different =
calculation for the pulldown table than it does for CMOS, see below.=20
=20
What is the 10 lines of garbage you are seeing?=20
=20
Hope that helps.=20
=20
Tom Dagostino=20
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division=20
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane=20
                                  Beaverton, OR 97008=20
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065=20

[email-masked]=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of =
[email-masked]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 12:41 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Tom,=20

Thank you for your reply. I am starting with a Spectre netlist. I have =
tried s2ibis to make a model for LVPECL.=20
I noticed some differences. ECL has a supply of 0V (plus) and -5.2V =
(neg). My circuit has a supply of 3.3V (plus) and 0V (neg).=20
The pulldown table ranges from 1.1V to 3.3V (the pull down reference has =
been set to 3.3V, the pull-up reference as well), followed by ten lines =
of garbage. A collegue of mine has changed to pragram a bit so the pull =
down curve starts at 0V and ends at 2.2V (still followed by ten lines of =
garbage).=20
Is this a correct range?=20
What does the simulator that uses the IBIS model do with the information =
that it is an output-ECL model type? And how are the data tables =
interpreted in conjunction with the ECL_model type?=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure=20
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

=09

"Tom Dagostino" <[email-masked]>=20

05/08/03 07:16 PM=20
Please respond to tom=20

       =20
      To:        Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2=20
      cc:        =20
      Subject:        RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        =20

Erik=20

What are you starting with?  A SPICE description or are you going to =
make the model from measurements?  If you start with SPICE there is a =
spice to ibis program that you can download from the ibis home page.  If =
you are starting from measurements then you will need a lot of equipment =
to make the measurements.  You will have to manually convert the =
measurements to the ibis data.=20

Simulators use the output_ecl line to know how to handle ECL.  In IBIS =
ECL models are slightly different than standard CMOS or TTL drivers.  In =
CMOS or TTL the pulldown current is sunk into the ground plane and the =
pullup current is sourced from the supply.  With PECL both the pullup =
and pulldown are sourced from the supply.  So in PECL the pulldown is =
referenced to the supply, not ground.  The simulator needs to know this =
when it is using the IV tables.=20

Tom Dagostino=20
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC     Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
2926 SE Yamhill St.                Device Modeling Division=20
Portland, OR 97214                 13610 SW Harness Lane=20
                                 Beaverton, OR 97008=20
http://www.teraspeed.com           503-430-1065=20

[email-masked]=20
- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of =
[email-masked]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 12:04 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl

Dear all,=20

I think I mailed my question too early since I subscribed to the user =
group at the same time. So I'll post it again, please see below.=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20
- ----- Forwarded by Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS on 05/08/03 09:03 AM =
- -----=20

=09

Erik van der Ven=20

05/06/03 02:01 PM=20

       =20
     To:        [email-masked]=20
     cc:        =20
     Subject:        (lv)pecl=20

        Classification:        Unclassified=20

1. How can I make an IBIS model of a (LV)PECL model?=20
2. What does an IBIS simulator do with the model type information (like =
output_ECL)?=20

Can anyone help me?=20
Thanks.=20

With kind regards,=20

Ir. Erik van der Ven
Room DB1032
Business Line Networking Infrastructure
Philips Semiconductors BV
Gerstweg 2
6534 AE Nijmegen
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-24-3534334=20

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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003>Relating to garbage lines</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D135424214-14052003>We are=20
using the s2ibis2 (windows version) and having similar problems. They =
starts=20
when the supply voltage is reduced below 3.3 V and gets worse and worse =
as the=20
supply voltage drops. So the issue is worse for 1.8 V models than 2.5 V =
models=20
etc.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D135424214-14052003>I=20
brought up the issue around a year ago on the list with no=20
replies.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D135424214-14052003>The=20
Spice results files are OK, so the problems relates to the way that =
s2ibis2=20
reads them.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D135424214-14052003>The=20
'workaround' we use it to extract the missing/erronous points from the=20
simulation files and adding them to the IBIS file =
manually.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003>Regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D135424214-14052003>/Henrik G Madsen</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 14. maj 2003=20
15:25<BR><B>To:</B> [email-masked]<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Tom,=20
</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Do you need the netlist =
as well, or=20
is the plain s2i file good enough for you? (because I cannot send you =
the=20
spectre file).</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Birendra =
seems to=20
have a similar problem.</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>Alex,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I am =
using Spectre for=20
simulations.</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>With =
kind=20
regards,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Erik.</FONT> =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Ir. Erik van der Ven<BR>Room =
DB1032<BR>Business Line=20
Networking Infrastructure<BR>Philips Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg =
2<BR>6534 AE=20
Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone: +31-24-3534334</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD>
    <TD><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>"Tom =
Dagostino"=20
      &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/12/03 05:53 PM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please respond to tom</FONT> <BR></P>
    <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users]=20
      (lv)pecl</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT>=20
<BR></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2>I've=20
seen some other models with this kind of issue in them from s2ibis. =
&nbsp;I'm=20
not sure what causes this, it was a while ago and the half life of old =
problems=20
is relatively short. &nbsp;I would first start by looking at the input =
file that=20
is generated. &nbsp;Be sure you do not have any typos in it, that the =
voltages=20
are correct, etc. &nbsp;Send me a copy if you want and I'll take a look =
at=20
it.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>Tom Dagostino</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed =
Consulting Group=20
LLC</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>2926 SE Yamhill St. =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Device Modeling Division</FONT> =

<BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3>http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
503-430-1065=20
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2>-----Original=20
Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> [email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>[email-masked]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, May 12, 2003 =
12:37=20
AM<B><BR>To:</B> [email-masked]<B><BR>Subject:</B> RE: =
[IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Tom, =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>About=20
the garbage lines:</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>I use s2ibis for model type =
output_ECL.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Voltage=20
range has been &nbsp;left out (since this created a voltage source of =
1.9V to=20
the ground node in the spectre simulation files).</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Pull-up=20
and pull-down references have been set to 3.3V.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>The=20
result is an IBIS file that contains a pulldown-curve starting at 1.1V =
and=20
continuing up to 3.3V.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Then the next voltages are: 2.05, 9 times =
0V and=20
3.3V. Most currents are equal to the 3.3V current except for the max =
current,=20
which is increasing for every line (note that I filled in the typical =
values for=20
the the min and max cases).</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>The pull-up curve ranges =
from 0V to=20
2.2V and is then followed by 10 times 0V and 2.2V. The current for the =
0V lines=20
is always 0.000A, except for the first one.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>So I get some =
strange values=20
and the range is from 0-2.2V instead of -3.3 to 6.6V.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>With=20
kind regards,</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Ir. Erik van der Ven<BR>Room =
DB1032<BR>Business=20
Line Networking Infrastructure<BR>Philips Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg=20
2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone: =
+31-24-3534334</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR><BR></FONT>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"2%">
    <TD width=3D"43%"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
      size=3D3><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1><B><BR>"Tom=20
      Dagostino" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/09/03 07:11 PM</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D1><BR>Please respond to tom</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
      size=3D3> </FONT></P>
    <TD width=3D"53%"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;To:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der=20
      Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;cc:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users]=20
      (lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>Erik</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>In the old =
days (in the=20
60s) when Motorola first developed ECL They found that running ECL from =
0 to=20
- -5.2 volts worked better because the ground planes on boards at the time =
was=20
cleaner. &nbsp;ECL is referenced to the most positive supply, thus a =
clean=20
reference was important. &nbsp;In those days the ground could have been =
a=20
complete plane of the board but power was in many cases distributed via =
traces=20
on one of the layer. &nbsp;In today's modern circuit boards both the =
power and=20
ground are distributed in planes so this is not an issue. =
&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
size=3D2><BR>The voltage difference you see is not important. &nbsp;When =
you are=20
running the SPICE simulation you just need to connect the Vcc to 3.3 and =
the Vee=20
to ground to get the PECL model. &nbsp;Remember the 50 Ohm termination =
needs to=20
be connected to Vcc - 2 volts or 1.3 for the typical case when running =
the AC=20
simulations.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>I do have concerns about the =
table range you=20
are seeing. &nbsp;It should be between -3.3 and +6.6 Volts for all the =
IV=20
tables.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>The simulator does several things =
with the=20
data. &nbsp;First of all it will check the data to ensure it is at least =

consistent, has not syntax issues, etc. &nbsp;Then, for outputs, it =
builds a set=20
of coefficients that describes how the buffer transitions from pullup to =

pulldown and from pulldown to pullup. &nbsp;This table is based on the =
VT=20
waveforms and the IV curves.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>The output =
impedance of=20
the buffer is composed of the sum of the pullup or pulldown IV table =
plus the=20
power and ground clamps plus the component of C_comp.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
size=3D2><BR>If the buffer is an input the the power and ground clamps =
are summed=20
and put in parallel with C_comp.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>Because =
the model is=20
designated ECL, the simulator makes one different calculation for the =
pulldown=20
table than it does for CMOS, see below.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
size=3D3> <BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><BR>What is the 10=20
lines of garbage you are seeing?</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>Hope that=20
helps.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3><BR>Tom Dagostino</FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3><BR>Teraspeed =
Consulting Group=20
LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D3><BR>2926=20
SE Yamhill St. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Device=20
Modeling Division</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3><BR>Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D3><BR>&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beaverton, OR 97008</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3><BR>http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =

503-430-1065 </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> [email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>[email-masked]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Friday, May 09, 2003 =
12:41=20
AM<B><BR>To:</B> [email-masked]<B><BR>Subject:</B> RE: =
[IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Tom,</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D3>=20
</FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Thank you for your =
reply. I am=20
starting with a Spectre netlist. I have tried s2ibis to make a model for =

LVPECL.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2><BR>I noticed some differences. ECL has a supply of 0V (plus) =
and -5.2V=20
(neg). My circuit has a supply of 3.3V (plus) and 0V (neg).</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>The=20
pulldown table ranges from 1.1V to 3.3V (the pull down reference has =
been set to=20
3.3V, the pull-up reference as well), followed by ten lines of garbage. =
A=20
collegue of mine has changed to pragram a bit so the pull down curve =
starts at=20
0V and ends at 2.2V (still followed by ten lines of =
garbage).</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR>Is this a=20
correct range?</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>What does the simulator that uses the =
IBIS model do=20
with the information that it is an output-ECL model type? And how are =
the data=20
tables interpreted in conjunction with the ECL_model type?</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR><BR>With=20
kind regards,</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Ir. Erik van der Ven<BR>Room =
DB1032<BR>Business=20
Line Networking Infrastructure</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
</FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Philips Semiconductors =
BV<BR>Gerstweg=20
2<BR>6534 AE Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone: =
+31-24-3534334</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"2%">
    <TD width=3D"43%"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
      size=3D3><BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1><B><BR><BR>"Tom=20
      Dagostino" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;</B></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/08/03 07:16 PM</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D1><BR>Please respond to tom</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
      size=3D3> </FONT></P>
    <TD width=3D"53%"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
To: &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Erik van der =
Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS@EMEA2</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT =

      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: [IBIS-Users] (lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
      size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
size=3D2><BR><BR>Erik</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><BR>What are you starting with? =
&nbsp;A SPICE=20
description or are you going to make the model from measurements? =
&nbsp;If you=20
start with SPICE there is a spice to ibis program that you can download =
from the=20
ibis home page. &nbsp;If you are starting from measurements then you =
will need a=20
lot of equipment to make the measurements. &nbsp;You will have to =
manually=20
convert the measurements to the ibis data.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><BR>Simulators use the=20
output_ecl line to know how to handle ECL. &nbsp;In IBIS ECL models are =
slightly=20
different than standard CMOS or TTL drivers. &nbsp;In CMOS or TTL the =
pulldown=20
current is sunk into the ground plane and the pullup current is sourced =
from the=20
supply. &nbsp;With PECL both the pullup and pulldown are sourced from =
the=20
supply. &nbsp;So in PECL the pulldown is referenced to the supply, not =
ground.=20
&nbsp;The simulator needs to know this when it is using the IV=20
tables.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3><BR>Tom Dagostino</FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3><BR>Teraspeed =
Consulting Group=20
LLC &nbsp; &nbsp; Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D3><BR>2926=20
SE Yamhill St. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Device=20
Modeling Division</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3><BR>Portland, OR 97214 &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13610 SW Harness Lane</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
size=3D3><BR>&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Beaverton, OR 97008</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
size=3D3><BR>http://www.teraspeed.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =

503-430-1065 </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D3>[email-masked]</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> [email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>[email-masked]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 08, 2003 =
12:04=20
AM<B><BR>To:</B> [email-masked]<B><BR>Subject:</B> =
[IBIS-Users]=20
(lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR><BR>Dear =
all,</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR><BR>I=20
think I mailed my question too early since I subscribed to the user =
group at the=20
same time. So I'll post it again, please see below.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR><BR>Ir.=20
Erik van der Ven<BR>Room DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking=20
Infrastructure<BR>Philips Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE=20
Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone: +31-24-3534334</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
color=3D#800080=20
size=3D1><BR>----- Forwarded by Erik van der Ven/NYM/SC/PHILIPS on =
05/08/03 09:03=20
AM -----</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"4%">
    <TD width=3D"34%"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B><BR><BR><BR>Erik van der =
Ven</B></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>05/06/03 02:01 PM</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT></P>
    <TD width=3D"60%"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;To: &nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[email-masked]</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
      size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;cc:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Subject:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(lv)pecl</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
      size=3D3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
      Classification: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Unclassified</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>1. How can I make an IBIS =
model of a=20
(LV)PECL model?</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>2. What does an IBIS simulator do with =
the model type=20
information (like output_ECL)?</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
</FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>Can anyone help =
me?</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2><BR>Thanks.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR><BR>With kind regards,</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2><BR><BR>Ir.=20
Erik van der Ven<BR>Room DB1032<BR>Business Line Networking=20
Infrastructure<BR>Philips Semiconductors BV<BR>Gerstweg 2<BR>6534 AE=20
Nijmegen<BR>The Netherlands<BR>Phone: +31-24-3534334</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
<P>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>

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End of ibis-users V1 #23
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