Minutes SV-AC 11/03/03
Written by: Arif Samad

SV-AC v3.1a Meetings:
Next meeting November 10 9am PST

code for the conference call:

        Domestic: 888-635-9997
        International: 763-315-6815
        Participant: 274372#

Attendance Record
	Legend:
		x = attended
		- = missed
		r = represented
		. = not yet a member
		v = valid voter (3 out of last 4 or 75% overall)
		n = not valid voter

v[xxxxxx] Faisal Haque (Cisco, Chairman)
v[xx-xxx] Arif Samad (Synopsys - Co-chair)	
v[-xxxx-] Roy Armoni (Intel)
v[xxxxxx] Surrendra Dudani (Synopsys)
n[------] Cindy Eisner (IBM)
v[xxxxxx] John Havlicek (Motorola)
n[------] Richard Ho (0-in)
v[xxx-xx] Adam Krolnik (LSI)
v[xxxxxx] Joseph Lu (Sun)
n[----x-] Rishiyur Nikhil (Blue Spec)
v[xx-x-x] Koushik Roy (Cadence)
n[------] Andrew Seawright (0-in)
v[-xxx--] Bassam Tabbara (Novas)
n[------] Tej Singh (Mentor)
n[---x-x] Connie O'dell (Consultant)
v[xx-xxx] Hillel Miller (Motorola)
==||||+-------------------------- 09/29/03
==|||+--------------------------- 10/13/03
==||+---------------------------- 10/20/03
==|+----------------------------- 10/27/03
==+------------------------------ 11/03/03


Historical Attendance from SV3.1 through 4/21/03

v[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx----x.] Faisal Haque (Cisco, Chairman)
v[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-x-x-x] Steve Meier (Synopsys, Co-Chair)
v[xxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx-xxx--x] Roy Armoni (Intel)
v[xxrxxxxxrxxxxxxx-x-xxxrxx.] Surrendra Dudani (Synopsys)
v[rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxrxrx] Cindy Eisner (IBM)
v[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxrxx-xxx..] John Havlicek (Motorola)
n[--xxx--xxrxxxxxx-xx-xxxxx.] Richard Ho (0-in)
v[-xxxxxx-xxxx-xxxxxxxxxxrx-] Adam Krolnik (LSI)
v[xxxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxx---xx] Joseph Lu (Sun)
v[rxxxrx--xxxxxxxxxxxx--xxxx] Erich Marschner (Cadence)
v[-xxx-x-xxxrxxxx-x-xxxxxx-x] Andrew Seawright (0-in)
v[x-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-xrxxxx] Bassam Tabbara (Novas)
v[-xxxx-x-xxxxx.............] Tej Singh (Mentor)
n[x-x--xx-xxxx..............] Connie O'dell (Consultant)
n[---xx-x-xxx-x--xxx-x--xx-x] David Lacey (HP, OVL Chairman)
n[-x--x-xxxxx---x...........] Hillel Miller (Motorola)
n[-----xxxx.................] Kurt Shultz (Motorola)
==|||||||||||||||||||||||||
==||||||||||||||||||||||||+- 07/09/02
==|||||||||||||||||||||||+-- 07/25/02
==||||||||||||||||||||||+--- 08/01/02
==|||||||||||||||||||||+---- 08/08/02
==||||||||||||||||||||+----- 08/15/02
==|||||||||||||||||||+------ 08/22/02
==||||||||||||||||||+------- 09/05/02
==|||||||||||||||||+-------- 09/12/02
==||||||||||||||||+--------- 09/19/02
==|||||||||||||||+---------- 09/26/02
==||||||||||||||+----------- 10/03/02
==|||||||||||||+------------ 10/31/02
==||||||||||||+------------- 12/03/02
==|||||||||||+-------------- 01/23/03
==||||||||||+--------------- 01/30/03
==|||||||||+---------------- 02/06/03
==||||||||+----------------- 02/13/03
==|||||||+------------------ 02/20/03
==||||||+------------------- 02/25/03
==|||||+-------------------- 03/06/03
==||||+--------------------- 03/27/03
==|||+---------------------- 04/03/03
==||+----------------------- 04/08/03
==|+------------------------ 04/10/03
==+------------------------- 04/21/03

1) Action Items
---------------

>From 10/20/03
* John: break up his proposal to separate discussion 
  of nested implications and boolean connectives.No need
  to provide detailed instructions for LRM changes

Status: Sent out proposals.

* John: add the proposal for if-then-else construct in the
  boolean connectives proposal for properties 

Status: Sent out proposals.

* Faisal: Inform TCC that John's proposals will not contain
  LRM changes yet. Once approved, the LRM changes will be 
  added and further proposed for approval 

Status: Spoke to TC committee. Committee wants vote on final
draft.

>From 10/27/03
* Surrendra - More information on formal semantics of assume.

* Surrendra - add text to describe that assumptions will be
  checked in simulation.

* Surrendra - examples for using assume in constraint blocks
- Done. Sent e-mail

* Arif - add Adam's erratum to list. Have committee review.
- Done

>From 11/3/03
* Surrendra will send alternative proposal for extension 5
  based on Adam's comments.

* Arif will talk to David Smith for best way for SV-AC 
  members to vote on which proposals are most likely to pass and
  hence worth spending time on.

2) Minutes
----------

General Discussion
------------------
Faisal - forwarded Adam's proposal to pass ... through modports
to SV-BC.

John - dropped "abort" for now. Can pick it up later.

Surrendra will look at Vassilios BNF e-mail.

There was a general discussion on the best way
to decide which extensions were most likely to
pass so that members could focus on refining these
for approval and inclusion in the LRM.

Arif will talk to David Smith for suggestion on the
best way to do this. Also, confirm what condition
proposals have to be in by Dec 1 - ready for
inclusion in LRM?

Discussion on Adam's Erratum
----------------------------
John: need to consider implications on coverage.

Surrendra: coverage for properties is the same
as if you were going to execute the action block.
2 types: properties or sequences. Properties just
pass/fail; for sequence there is no implication.
If you want first match then explicitly apply it.

John: want to know if made it across the implication.
Need more access to structure of property for coverage.
Committee has not yet considered this.

Surrendra: yes. However, do currently track whether
property is satisfied vacuously or not.

John: concerned on approving something now which we
may have to take back when we consider coverage.
Ask Adam what he thinks?

Adam: following what is defined currently. Coverage
not yet considered by committee.

Arif: should we do e-mail vote?

Faisal: should do e-mail vote. Votes due by next Tuesday.

Surrendra: look at John's proposal first.

Discussion of Surrendra's "assume" example (sent by e-mail)
----------------------------------------------------------
Koushik - sent feedback via e-mail.

Faisal - also hoping for transaction example.

Surrendra - separate issue. Will send different
example.

Adam: is it possible for assertion to see different
view than constraint solver?

Surrendra: if have combinational loop...

Adam: or if things are out of phase.

Surrendra: need to give enough time for signals
to stabilize otherwise it can break assertion at
clock tick.

Adam: looking at 1.1.2. 

Adam: are they any restrictions on what properties?

Surredra: not from a language point of view.

John: it is strange if there are properties with
non-deterministic patterns - sooner or later something
must happen (?)

Koushik: can fairness and safety properties not be written
as constraints?

John: sounds like they can based on what Surrendra said.

Surrendra: should not be a language issue. When using
constraints will have restrictions. This is not
different than combinational constraints.

Koushik: we should document this.

John/Adam(?): agree with this.

Discussion of Proposal 5 (Web numbering)
---------------------------------------
Numbered 1.1 in Surrendra PDF
"Non-blocking Assignment (NBA) for Assertions"

Adam: clocking domain would update them in what region?

Surrendra: end of reactive (?)

Adam: feel this is too restrictive for users. Regular
Verilog code gives users more capability.

Surrendra: then would have to define temporal functions.

Adam: since we have already defined clock extraction rules
we can say use of these functions is dependent on being
able to extract a clock.

Surrendra: can make attempt to define

John: would we be able to use ended?

Surrendra: that is tricky. Need to deal with.

Surrendra will send alternative proposal based
on Adam's comments.

Faisal: how much will this change?

Surrendra: it would do away with this and replace with
functions.

Discussion of Extension 6 (Web Numbering)
---------------------------------------
(1.4 in Surrendra PDF document - "Access to Sampled
 Values")

Surrendra went over proposal.

Discussion of Extension 14 
--------------------------
(1.5 in Surrendra PDF file - Access to Gated Clocked Variables)

John: why don't we have an optional event expression?

Surrendra: ok to add optional event expression.

Surrendra: alternative to non-blocking assignment,
define $past would automatically have event expression.

Discussion of Extension 9 (PDF 1.6)
-----------------------------------
No discussion...

3) Next Week
------------
- Go over John's proposals next week