SV-EC committee meeting. Monday August 30 2010 11:00am - 1:00pm PDT [ http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_August_30_2010_Minutes.txt ] Meeting number: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 0000 4321 Meeting Days: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ (3101) Day (0629) (0000) Month (8887) (1111) Year (0000) ------ Attendees -------------------------------------------------------- 1. (AAAAAA-AAA) Arturo Salz 4 - y 2. (A-AAAAAAAA) Dave Rich 3 - y 3. (AAAAAAAAAA) Francoise Martinolle 4 - y 4. (AAAAAAAAAA) Mehdi Mohtashemi 4 - y 5. (AAAAAAAAAA) Neil Korpusik 4 - y 6. (AAAAAAAAAA) Ray Ryan 4 - y 7. (AAAA--AAAA) Gordon Vreugdenhil 4 - y 8. (AAAAAAAAAA) Steven Sharp 4 - y 9. (--AA--AAAA) Heath Chambers 2 - y 10. (-AAA----AA) Don Mills 3 - y 11. (AAAAAAAAAA) Mark Hartoog 4 - y 12. (AA-AAAAAAA) Tom Alsop 3 - y 13. (AAAAA--AAA) Jonathan Bromley 4 - y 14. (A--AA--AAA) Neil S 2 15. (AAAA--AA--) Cliff Cummings 4 - y 16. (---------A) JL Gray 0 17. (A--AAAAAAA) Alex Gran 2 18. (AAAAAAA--A) Daniel Schostak 4 - y 19. (--------A) Kevin Johnston 0 20. (-------A--) John Halvicek 0 21. (-------A--) Scott Little 0 22. (----A--AA) Tracy McDermott 0 23. (AAAA------) Swapnajit Chakraborti 4 - y 24. (A---------) Linc Jepson 74ez 1 16 people will have voting rights in the next meeting ** Minutes taken by Neil Korpusik and Mehdi Mohtashemi ////////////////// August 30 2010 ///////////////////////// Agenda: 1. Review IEEE patent policy ------------------------------------------------------ http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.ppt Mehdi read the IEEE patent policy. 2. Approval of previous meeting minutes: ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_August_16_2010_Minutes.txt Move: Cliff to approve Second: Jonathan Abstain: Alex (was not present at the meeting) Opposed: Passed/approved unanimously 3. Updates from P1800 meeting on 8/12/2010 ------------------------------------------------ next meeting is on October 14 2010. will continue with the existing policies and guidelines until then. 4. Email vote results ------------------ All listed manti were voted YES to be closed. 251, 802, 1672, 1740, 2018, 2022, 2080 5. Continue Review and discussion of top 25 issues and categories: ------------------------------------------------------ Review of the top 25 [+10] started last meeting, 1 through 12th were discussed. Will continue with the list below. [Please take a look at Action Items per last meeting, appended at the end of this email] 2950, 2956, 2794, 1349, 2451, 3028, 2949 Mehdi - Swapnajit's items will be covered next time. 2950 - Francoise uploaded a proposal [.mht format ] Francoise - will upload a pdf file, not everyone could see the changes. .mht is a microsoft html format, not all browsers recognize it. Jonathan - can we get rid of "the presence of a default shall match"? Steven - if a default is specified it must match - we would need to break it into two phrases to be more clear Mehdi - this is just for virtual methods. Dave - why is only the "virtual" qualifier optional? Steven - you need to go back up through the base classes to check Move: Steven to approve [with the proposal to be in .pdf format] Second: Cliff Abstain: Opposed: Passed/approved unanimously 2956 Steven - has uploaded the proposal. Mehdi - is srandom argument not default. Steven - fixed the syntax in 9.7 for an enum - added the missing methods from the class definition. - only added the missing methods, not a description since they are described in other sections. Gord - has seen people using the fine-grained process control capability Steven - the random state methods (the missing ones) are the most useful. Gord - has seen suspend, resume used in interesting ways. Mehdi - will add a note to the editor to put in cross references. Move: Steven to approve proposal for 2956 Second: Arturo Abstain: Opposed: Passed/approved unanimously AI:2956 Mehdi making a note to the editor for adding cross reference. 2794 - Jonathan (queue method clarifications) Steven - if insert into a queue, can you index into '$+1'? Arturo - $ is ok, but not $+1 - maybe add a note that all indices must be contiguous - It might be best to state the semantics and then mention the part about the warning. 7.10.2.4, 7.10.2.5 Cliff - how about queue_pop on empty queue. Move: Steven to approve with the friendly amendment. Second: Cliff Abstain: none Opposed: none Passed/approved unanimously AI: 2794 Jonathan will make the friendly amendment. 1349 - Steven Sharp uploaded a proposal Steven - added two words to one sentence on spawned processes. "The spawned processes do not start executing until the parent thread executes a blocking statement or terminates." Move: Dave to approve the proposal for 1349 Second: Steven Abstain: none Opposed: none Passed/approved unanimously 2451 - Steven Sharp uploaded a proposal (issue with dash versus bullet) Steven - the second proposal addresses Shalom's comments. Alex - prefers the second version of the proposal. Francoise - this is not the c::f, this is for return type, Steven - if return is specified inside class, did not want to go through the whole description. Francoise - how about 3rd bullet, what is meant by "syntactically identical"? (lexical?) Steven - yes. That is what is said in another section. Gord - we need to be careful not to change anything along those lines. Move: Steven to approve the proposal Proposal2451v2.pdf Second: Francoise Abstain: Opposed: Passed/approved unanimously 3028 - Jonathan (uniqueness constraints) Jonathan - there are two proposals in the document. Steven - what about 4-state types, is 0 unique from x, returns bit type. Arturo - the constraints are not supported for 4-state types. Steven - is it not everything converted to two states. this issue already exists in unique Jonathan - === could be used. Mehdi - the original idea was for it to only be used in a constraint Arturo - the proposal allows it to be used elsewhere. Steven - thinks there should be a new name. Ray - was thinking of keeping the constraint stuff separate Jonathan - could define it as a unary operator which operates on a set. Steven - it is bizarre for a method name to also be a keyword Steven - seems to not be orthoganal if not allowed elsewhere. Ray - Maybe we need to consider a 3rd proposal. Use unique as a keyword and build it into constraints. Prefers to not to create a unique operator. There are specific constructs that are for constraints - unique allowed on the RHS of an implication constraint. There is already some verbiage of special cases for this. - it could be build into the grammer. This changes the definition of unique - would need to expand the unique out Jonathan - maybe we need to not allow "not unique" Ray - 2 purposes 1. a nice shorthand for the user 2. gives solver a high-level view of what is being done and it could possibly allow for optimizations. Steven - the solver can get slow Ray - if solver knows what you are doing, it could lead to optimizations Steven - can already be written using foreach Arturo - would like to preclude the use of a with-expression Jonathan - it sounds like the second proposal is closer to what is desired. Gord - the 2nd proposal has a statement about all variables being of equivalent type. Steven - it sounds like it is O(N*N) in complexity Arturo - it is at least that, possibly worse Mehdi - do we need more offline review of the proposal? Gord - he is comfortable with the second proposal Arturo - can live with the 2nd proposal - the big item was limiting it to heterogenous items Steven - may need to look at the wording used in the section for "inside" operator. Jonathan - don't want unique to blow up, if an array happens to not have 2 or more items. Arturo - there are a couple of friendly ammendment changes. Gord - would be best to allow another week of review. Mehdi - should proposal 1 be kept any longer? Jonathan - will update proposal 2 - thought it would be simpler to disallow randc variables Ray - rand_mode Arturo - leave out randc Ray - you can have some elements of an array that are not random Mehdi - are you suggesting turning off rand for individual array elments? Ray - yes, that is allowed. - similar to dist-type constraints Mehdi - we will discuss this one again next time AI:3028 Jonathan create a proposal and upload it for more dicussion and vote next meeting. 6. Next meetings September and October 2010 ----------------------------------------------------- Monday September 13 2010 Monday September 27 2010 Monday October 11 2010 Monday October 25 2010 -------- for reference only ------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Summary table: Assigned Lead/Champions --------------------------------------------- 1 2848 Francoise 2 3002 Tom, Dave, Jonathan, Francoise, Arturo, Neil S., Cliff, Gord 3 3046 Gord, Franocise, Mark, Ray 4 1356 Tom [same with 3002] 5 3001 Jonathan, Tom, Francoise 6 2999 Tom, Ray, Arturo, 7 3003 [2987, 2988] Jonathan, Tom, Ray, Arturo, 8 3082 Daniel, Jonathan, 9 2845 Francoise, Mark, Alex Neil S., Gord? 10 2956 Steven, 11 2505 Neil S., Mark, Francoise 12 2735 Arturo, Steven, Gord, 13 1706 Mark, Steven, Francoise, 14 2488 Steven, Francoise, 15 2112 Dave, Steven, 16 3028 Arturo, Ray, Neil S., Mehdi, 17 2950 Francoise, 18 2794 Jonathan, Steven 19 2993 Tom, Ray, Swapnajit (cadence) 20 1442 Steven, 21 2953 Ray 22 1349 Steven 23 2949 Jonathan, Steven 24 2451 Steven, 25 2987 Jonathan (combining 2987, 2988, see 3003) ------------------------------------- [next 10] 26 3006 Ray, Steven, 27 3004 Tom 28 2998 Tom 29 2117 Cliff?? 30 No Mantis 6 could be linked with 2991 with sv-bc 31 2928 Ray, Arturo, 32 2787 ?? (Daniel)?? 33 2972 ?? (Daniel)?? 34 2996 Tom, 35 2988 already assigned (see 3003) 36 No Mantis 4 related to AOP (already covered) -------------------------------------------------------------- FOR References: --------------------------------------------------------------------- ============ from Aguust 30 2010 meeting =================== AI:2956 Mehdi making a note to the editor for adding cross reference. AI: 2794 Jonathan will make the friendly amendment. AI:3028 Jonathan create a proposal and upload it for more dicussion and vote next meeting. ============ from Aguust 16 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3028 Jonathan - write up the parallel proposals. AI: 2794 Jonathan - add text for the case where indices are x, z AI: 1442 Steven - check if Shalom's comments make this issue moot. AI: 1349 Steven: create the proposal for 1349 AI: 2451 Steven put a proposal together. AI: 2993 Tom; will check internally to see if these meet their needs AI: 2993 Mehdi; upload the email as a note to the mantis item AI: 2993 Arturo; will donate their implementation. ============ from Aguust 2 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1706 Steven put together an email for bc to provide feedback on 4 options Mehdi can send to sv-bc AI: 2993 Swapnajit: add a note to the mantis item as to where we currently are in the process. AI: 2953 Ray - take a look at this one ============ from July 19 2010 meeting =================== AI:Tom get confirmation from users about exact intent of the original request for 3001 AI: Francoise will add a note to the mantis item 2848 AI: Gord will write up a proposal for 3046 AI: Ray will add a bugnote 2999 ============ from June 21 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - For number 30 on the list, 'no-mantis item 6' send email to Matt about linking this request to mantis 2991. AI/ALL - assigned leaders/champions to start looking at the top 25 items on the list and plan for proposals/discussions/reviews. ============ from June 7 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom - some examples would be useful [mantis 2987, soft constraints] AI/Cliff - what is actually required. [mantis 2117] Allow extending of covergroups in classes AI/Cliff, John H. - more details on this request, item number 30 [no mantis 6: allow re-use of enumerated names (slide 31) AI/All - find mantis items that can be closed, or easily resolved. - any of the 0.5h estimate items could be considered as well. ============ from May 24 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom and others: mantis 3002 AOP: any more clarifications from users perspective. AI/users: mantis 1356: Multiple inheritance:what are the particular requests? clarifications. AI/Tom - Mantis 3003, we need more clarification from user base ============ from May 10 2010 meeting =================== AI/Jonathan - create mantis items for No-Mantis-10. Completed action items: ============ from April 26 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - add a column for enhancement versus clarification AI/Mehdi - add a column for amount of work required. AI/Mehdi - add sheets for the various categores in the Google doc. AI/Mehdi - send out a link to the p1800 spreadsheet. AI/Mehdi - add a column for duplicates AI/All - send input on the list of categories. AI/ALL - until May 5th to provide any inputs on the spreadsheet. ============ from April 12 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - Look at the Google Docs and creaet spreadsheet for collaborative efforts. Also add cross committee column to the spreadsheet. AI/All - send inputs on any new items by April 24 2010, this is deadline for any item that is not already in the mantis database. AI/All - prioritize and categorize list of items that are in the spreadsheet to be reviewed during the next two sv-ec meetings. AI/Neil - email to cliff on proxy rights == List with estimates ======= hrs top 2t mantis Id 4 1 2848 12 2 3002 1 3 3046 16 4 1356 2 5 3001 3 6 2999 5 7 3003 8 8 3082 4 9 2845 0.5 10 2956 3 11 2505 4 12 2735 1 13 1706 2 14 2488 2 15 2112 2 16 3028 2 17 2950 1 18 2794 4 19 2993 0.5 20 1442 6 21 2953 0.5 22 1349 0.5 23 2949 4 24 2451 4 25 2987 92 total 46 (2hr sessions) 0.5 26 3006 4 27 3004 2 28 2998 4 29 2117 4 30 No Mantis 6 0.5 31 2928 4 32 2787 2 33 2972 2 34 2996 0 35 2988 0 36 No Mantis 4 23 total 11 sessions ====================================== top 25 Id Number of Votes weighted vote Summary Degrees of difficulty Cateogory Sub-Category 1 2848 7 159 Is it legal to assign an interface containing class declaration to a virtual interface med Virtual Interface and class 2 3002 8 125 Aspect Oriented Programming (AOP) features High class constraints 3 3046 8 112 Dotted names within inlined constraints Low class Strings/Arrays 4 1356 6 112 Multiple Inheritance High class Strings 5 3001 9 102 Proper Polymorphic behavior of instantiation low class Arrays 6 2999 7 99 Class Handle reference inside of Constraints med class constraints 7 3003 6 98 Constraint Composition High Randomization Strings 8 3082 7 96 (4) Ambiguity resolution (see slide 10 for examples of parts of the Standard that have been interpreted differently by different simulators) 9 2845 4 84 virtual interface type checking versus interface type that had been defparam'ed high Virtual Interface Misc / function proto 10 2956 4 76 clarify class 'process' definition (9.7 vs 18.13.3, 18.13.4, 18.13.5) low Process control 11 2505 4 76 class select: what is allowed after the dot? low class 12 2735 4 73 Ballot Comment #48: Chaining of method calls med class constraints 13 1706 4 72 Meaning of static prefix for virtual interface assignments Virtual Interfaces 14 2488 4 69 Are virtual method calls legal within class constructors? med VI OO classes 15 2112 6 69 Remove restrictions on NBA assigments to class members med class constraints 16 3028 6 68 constraints for unique array elements. Med Randomization 17 2950 4 67 virtual method prototype matching low class 18 2794 4 64 Clarify queue methods return status low class 19 2993 4 63 Cross cover points across different cover groups med Built-in Methods 20 1442 3 63 Clocking blocks legal in modports, missing from text description in 20.9 Functional Coverage 21 2953 6 61 Algorithmic generation of covergroup bin contents high clocking block 22 1349 5 61 fork/join_none: what if parent thread terminates without blocking statement? Functional Coverage 23 2949 4 60 LRM is silent about the semantics of referencing a clocking block output low Process control constraints 24 2451 6 58 Omitting body defaults med clocking block constraints 25 2987 6 56 Soft Constraints med class Misc / function proto 26 3006 5 55 LRM doesn't say explicitly what should happen if null pointer is randomized low class Data Types 27 3004 5 55 Ability to declare/qualify classes/methods/variables/constraints final med class Virtual Interface 28 2998 4 55 Solve Before enhanced low Randomization class 29 2117 3 52 Allow extending of covergroups in classes high Functional Coverage class 30 No Mantis 6 5 51 (3) Allow reuse of enumerated names (slide 31) cross-committee Randomization 31 2928 3 50 ambiguous restriction on function calls in constraint expressions low Randomization Randomization 32 2787 3 50 reference via scope operator to parametrized superclass item med class Randomization 33 2972 3 49 add class constructor/method, task/function overloading High class Randomization 34 2996 4 49 Method overloading High class Randomization 35 2988 2 48 Defaults Constraints med Randomization Process control 36 No Mantis 4 2 47 (1) AOP when-inheritance (slide 31) Class/AOP Functional Coverage