SV-EC Committee meeting Monday May 9, 2011 [ http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_May_9_2011_Minutes.txt ] Meeting number: 75% = 14 out of 18 meetings attended --------------- 111111111000000000 876543210987654321 Meeting Days: ------------- (021211102021213101) Day (951844762851730629) (000000011111000000) Month (544332121100998887) (111111111111111111) Year (111111100000000000) ------ Attendees ---------------------------- Members: 1. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Arturo Salz 18 - y Synopsys 2. (A-AAAAAAAAAAAAA-AA) Dave Rich 16 - y Mentor 3. (AAAAAAAAAAA--AAAAA) Francoise Martinolle 16 - y Cadence 4. (AA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Mehdi Mohtashemi 17 - y Synopsys 5. (AAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Neil Korpusik 17 - y Oracle 6. (AAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAA) Ray Ryan 17 - y Mentor 7. (AAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAA) Gordon Vreugdenhil 17 - y Mentor 8. (AAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAA) Steven Sharp 17 - y Cadence 9. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Mark Hartoog 18 - y Synopsys 10. (AA-AA-AAAAAAAAAA-A) Tom Alsop 15 - y Intel 11. (AAAAAA-AA--AAAA--A) Neil S 13 - y Marvel 12. (AAAA-A-AAAAAA-A--A) Alex Gran 13 - y Mentor 13. (A----AAAA-A-------) Brandon Tipp 6 - Intel 14. (AAAAAAAAA---------) Scott Little 9 - y Freescale 15. (-------------AAAAA) Swapnajit Chakraborti 5 Cadence 16. (---A--------------) Dennis Brophy 1 Mentor 17. (A--AAAA---A-AAAAAA) Daniel Schostak 12 ARM 18. (-AA---------------) Mike Burns 2 - y Oracle 19. (--------A---------) John Havlicek 1 Freescale 20. (A-----------------) Stu Sutherland 1 Editor 21. (-----AA-AAAAAAAAAA) Jonathan Bromley 12 Accellera Observers: 1. (A-AA-A-AAAA-------) Tony Tsai 8 Cisco 2. (A-AA-A-A----------) Mark Strickland 5 Cisco Former participants: 1. (-----A-AAA---A--AA) Heath Chambers 7 2. (-----AA--AA----AAA) Don Mills 7 3. (-----A-----A-AAAAA) Cliff Cummings 7 Sunburst 4. (-----AA-AA-AAAA---) Linc Jepson 8 5. (-------A----------) Dave Gates 1 AMD 14 people will have voting rights in the next meeting http://standards.ieee.org/develop/corpchan/mbrs1.html // IEEE-SA members ** Minutes taken by Neil Korpusik and Mehdi Mohtashemi ////////////////// May 9 2011 ///////////////////////// Agenda 0. Approval of Agenda ------------------------------------------------------ Additions/modifications to the agenda by members. Move: Francoise to approve Second: Steven Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved. 1. Review IEEE patent policy ------------------------------------------------------ http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.ppt Move: Gord to assume it has been read Second: Tom Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved. 2. Approval of previous meetings minutes: ------------------------------------------------------ Minutes from April 25 2011 meetings http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_April_25_2011_Minutes.txt Move: Scott Second: Mark H. Abstain: Opposed: 3. Updates from P1800 WG --------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Bromley - is now the Accellera DRA for the svec. 4a. Updates from email vote --------------------------------------------------------- Items: 3046, 2506, 3531, 3394, 2905, 3254, 3298, 3054, 2935 The email vote is still in progress (ends Wednesday). Planning to put more up for email votes when new proposals become available. 4b. Continue Review and discussion of top 25 issues and categories: ------------------------------------------------------ Review of the top 25 [+10+3]; 9 have been approved. 3278 virtual method type rules [Francoise] [Merged with 3279, 3278 has both now] 3279 Enhance method override rules to allow covariant typing [Francoise] 3278-v1.pdf & 3279-v1.pdf [^] 3278: Francoise: has the latest information and proposal. Combined 3279 and 3278 in 3278 this proposal does not allow covariant for input argument, only for return argument. Mehdi - we will close 3279 as being covered by 3278 Dave: what about matching default, presence of default? Steven: there were already text in the document, if the default specified it must match. (last sentence of 2nd paragraph in 8.19) - The proposal ends up splitting the existing text. Stu - wasn't sure where the new text was to be placed Gord - wasn't keen on the second sentence where it says "in additiona to" This makes it sound like there are multiple restrictions instead of saying there are two options. Steven - pull out the part of matching return type and say it separately. - the part which describes different requirements should be separate. Ray - saying "return types" seems to make it sound like there is more than one return type. Gord - keep the original new sentence and strike it out in the new version to help the Editor know how to make the changes. Steven - keep some more of the existing text above and below to put the changes into context. Mehdi - if Francoise updates the proposal we can put it up for an email vote. AI:(3278) Francoise to update the 3278 proposal 3293 Clarify $cast behavior on class handles [Jonathan ] proposal-3293-B.pdf Mehdi - is this one ready for an email vote? Gord -literal null can be cast to any handle. "If source_expression has the value null, or is of a class type that is not assignment-compatible with destination, the cast shall fail and error handling shall be as described in 6.24.2." - this isn't what we intended. - It appears that this sentence is reversed. - There are two problems with this sentence. The intent for casting is that if it is a feasible assignment it is ok. Want to permit the literal null to always be permissible as an assignment to a class type (as a special case). Arturo - the static check about the type, and the run-time null that is allowed. what happens with a $cast for an enum? In the case where the enum value matches the cast? Gord - this mantis is only dealing with classes. Scott - 8.15 is a sub-clause of the class clause. Arturo - not sure the new proposal is preferable to the existing text. It is a lot more verbose and uses different terminology. It might be best to have a more surgical approach. There are problems with the new text. Ray - the non-null case is it cast warning? Gord - the only value that can be cast between class types is null. - There are three cases normal cases assignment compatible cases cast from null AI: (3293) Arturo - update the proposal in preparation for an email vote. 1356 Interface Classes [Multiple inheritance] [Tom, Brandon] Tom - Looking at making more changes to the proposal based on discussions. Gord - Nothing defined in grammer for any of this, the BNF, needs to be updated, would prefer more than one week for the review. Francoise - the IC could contain pure constraint, the class that implements it defines the constraint Tom - is currently working on the bnf. - Jonathan had a comment on constraint blocks (see end of proposal) "pure constraints" are described in 18.5.2 8.25.7 in the proposal, could possibly use that terminology here. Neil S. - does not make sense to have an empty constarint block Brandon - you can enable or disable the constraint. it Steven - seems to remember that constraints aren't virtual Turning constraints on and off wouldn't be allowed if not virtual. Doesn't think the LRM treats them this way. If you access them through a method other than randomize, they aren't treated as being virtual in that case. Randomize will operate recursively. - randomize is virtual - they come out as virtual since randomize is the thing that is virtual Arturo - constraints are sort of virtual, you can overwrite them Steven - the reason is because randomize is virtual, it is not really that is virtual. the mechanism to turn on or off Ray - constraint_mode is explicit member of constriaint. randomize is part of the "constraint object". Gord - given an interface class handle. can't use a with-clause for constraints to reference members for this case. Steven - An inline constraint on a randomized call using an interface class couldn't be used. Steven - could use with-clauses to add a constraint - one of the implementing classes should contain the code to turn the constraint on and off. - shouldn't need the constraint if also don't make the call to turn it on and off. - goal is for users of the interface class to be able to operate on it. Brandon - this capability wasn't in the original proposal. Not sure why it ended up in the proposal, possibly just for completeness. Mehdi - it might be best to remove this from the proposal. Steven - you can't have a property, so you can't have one of these either. Tom - will remove the constraint sub-clause (8.25.7) 3002 Aspect Oriented Programming (AOP) features [Tom] Mehdi - Mark S. and Tony have a presentation. AOP2011_cisco.pdf (9 pages) Tony - there was a suggestion to list out user requirements before diving into a solution. Things thought of late in the project. Add/modify constraints most of the time. class or class method changes Tony - ~80% of the time related to constraints in his environment. Different styles of environments could be different. - "efficiency" here means user time (page 3) Haven't run into issues with simulation speed. Neil S. - hacking test benches is more important than worrying about perf. Neil K. - doesn't want to see any hit in performance if AOP isn't used. Gord - The compile time could also be an issue. - we may need to start with a discussion on a "compilation unit". Tony - back to presentation. - partition between testbench and testcase testbench - the environment (by itself will randomize everything) testcase - tweaking constraints in the testbench - uses a testplan to define test cases early on can use coverage data later in project to create new test cases Steven - AOP is attempting to change things later, without any hooks Another approach would be to add some hooks to allow modifications later. Dave - Not allowing any changes to the testbench later on, will most likely lead to spaghetti code later on. Steven - making everthing virtual early on, another way to approach it. Arturo - making everthing virtual creates a performance hit... Gord - AOP will also cause a performance hit since it in essence makes everthing virtual. Dave - could possibly still have flexability even without AOP or OOP Mark - that could be done, but it requires forethought. Tony - with AOP can only update the leaf nodes of a class hierarchy. Steven - the extra code with OOP is mostly in the code that deals with allocation. Gord - AOP is pretty heavy machinery for accomplishing some of this. Tony - AOP can be used at any level of the inheritance tree. Mehdi - looking for email discussions on this mantis item. 2993 Coverage Cross cover points across different cover groups [Arturo, Swapnajit] 3082 Daniels' top items [3075, 3076, 3077, 3078, 3079, 3080, 3081] 3003 [2987, 2988] constraint composition [Jonathan, Tom, Ray, Arturo] 2735 ballot comment #48, chaining.. [Arturo, Steven, Gord] 2848 Is it legal to assign an interface containing class declaration to a virtual interface [Francoise] [hold for next few meetings: sv-bc is also looking at interfaces] 3001 Proper Polymorphic behavior of instantiation [Jonathan, Tom, Francoise] 2999 Class Handle reference inside of Constraints [Tom, Ray, Arturo] 1706 Meaning of static prefix for virtual interface assignments [Mark, Steven, Francoise] 2488 Are virtual method calls legal within class constructors? [Steven, Francoise] 1442 Clocking blocks legal in modports, missing from text description in 20.9 [Steven] 3254 18.5.6 if-else constraints mistakenly uses the work "block" when it means "set" 3230 task should be function in definition of static functions 2112 Remove restrictions on NBA assignments to class members [Dave, Steven] 2112_NBA.pdf 2900 - Associative array should consider the context of an lvalue to create an entry [Dave] 3046 Dotted names within inlined constraints [Gord] 2506 [2953] Coverage [Scott] 3254 - 18.5.6 if-else constraints mistakenly uses the work "block" when it means "set" [Dave] 3254_constraint_set.pdf 2794 - Clarify queue methods return status (related to sv-bc) 1067 (LRM consistency issues regarding access to nonexistent array elements). 1067-proposal-revA.pdf 5. Next meetings 2011 ----------------------------------------------------- Discussion on Face-to-Face and weekly meetings Monday May 23 2011 Regular biweekly Monday June 6 2011 Regular biweekly Monday June 20 2011 Regular biweekly FOR References: --------------------------------------------------------------------- =========== from May 9 2011 meeting =================== AI: (3278) Francoise to update the 3278 proposal AI: (3293) Arturo - update the proposal in preparation for an email vote. =========== from April 25 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 Scott and Mike to update the restrictions (straw poll) =========== from April 11 2011 meeting =================== AI: 3181 unanimously approved AI: 3297 unanimously approved. AI: 2985 unanimously approve: CLOSE as duplicate of 245 AI: 245 CLOSE 245 as already implemented vote: yes Abstain: Gord: The summary says array of queues - not sure that what exists is as general as what was requested. Persistence of elements is a key point with this. AI: 3254 Dave:change the coloring, also no underlining, and add mantis item to the top of the proposal. AI: 2952 unanimously approved AI: 3405 Mehdi The proposal needs be deleted, [Close as duplicate of 2952] AI: 3230 Mehdi contact the svbc - the svec wants to take ownership of 3230 AI: 3230 Gord will update 3230 and scrub related text for any additional changes that might be required. AI: 2900 Dave to update the proposal. =========== from March 28 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 Scott to get more input from the user community (Freescale). All, Please respond when information hits the reflector. All, Please consult with the users to get their feedback. =========== from March 14 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 All - Scott to send out clarification email to the alias. =========== from February 14 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 All - discuss this proposal over email. =========== from January 17 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2848 Mehdi - hold this off for the next 3 or 4 sessions. AI: 1356 Tom/Team state the differences between extensions and inheritance. ============ from December 6 2010 meeting =================== AI: 2845 Francoise - update the proposal with these changes. AI: 2848 Francoise - update the proposal with these changes. AI: 1356 Tom - update the proposal with some of the issues being raised. AI: 1356 all - review the new proposal before the next meeting. ============ from November 22 2010 meeting =================== AI: 2848, 2845; Franocoise update the proposals. AI: 2505; Neil S., update the proposal. AI: 2506; put the proposal into the required format AI: everyone to review and be ready to discuss during next time. ============ from November 8 2010 meeting =================== AI: Minutes; Mehdi - will check for consistency between the left and right sides for the attendance. AI: for 1356 Multiple Inheritance (interface classes) Mehdi - will make a request to the WG on this. General statement about being allowed to work on mantis items that are affected. AI: Jonathan - NULL within $cast AI: Gord - the OVM people would like to have that. Covariant and Contravarianct type extensions. you allow method that do not allow exact type signature of over-written method, but can return the objects of the type of original return type, impact of that would be on Interface classes. AI: Gord - Overwriting of virtual method section AI: Tom - update the proposal (to number 4) ============ from October 25 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1356 Tom - update the proposal, make corrections and more normative text. All - provide more detailed feedback to Tom. ============ from October 11 2010 meeting =================== AI: related to 2505 All - should we allow enum constants to be accessed by the dot? AI: 2953 Mehdi - make 2953 a child of 2506 Mehdi - make a request in this week's P1800 meeting to work on 2506 AI: 2080, 1672, 802 Neil - update the mantis items (3 of them) AI: 251 Mehdi, leave mantis 251 open AI: 2794 Mehdi, reopen mantis item for feedback Jonathan: update AI: 2949 Jonathan: send email to Brad to get clarification on his feedback. ============ from September 27 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3003 Tom - will get feedback on specific examples. (see 18.7 for information on the with-clause) AI: 3003 Jonathan - will get an email discussion going. ============ from September 13 2010 meeting =================== AI: Coverage item Swapnajit - will provide a note for clarification, to be added to Mantis 1802 AI: Coverage item Swapnajit - will put together a proposal for this issue. [related to 19.5.3 wildcard specification] AI: 2848 Francoise - Will do a write-up for this proposal. AI: 2845 Francoise - will try to write-up for this. ============ from August 30 2010 meeting =================== AI:2956 Mehdi making a note to the editor for adding cross reference. AI: 2794 Jonathan will make the friendly amendment. AI:3028 Jonathan create a proposal and upload it for more discussion and vote next meeting. ============ from August 16 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3028 Jonathan - write up the parallel proposals. AI: 2794 Jonathan - add text for the case where indices are x, z AI: 1442 Steven - check if Shalom's comments make this issue moot. AI: 1349 Steven: create the proposal for 1349 AI: 2451 Steven put a proposal together. AI: 2993 Tom; will check internally to see if these meet their needs AI: 2993 Mehdi; upload the email as a note to the mantis item AI: 2993 Arturo; will donate their implementation. ============ from Aguust 2 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1706 Steven put together an email for bc to provide feedback on 4 options Mehdi can send to sv-bc AI: 2993 Swapnajit: add a note to the mantis item as to where we currently are in the process. AI: 2953 Ray - take a look at this one ============ from July 19 2010 meeting =================== AI:Tom get confirmation from users about exact intent of the original request for 3001 AI: Francoise will add a note to the mantis item 2848 AI: Gord will write up a proposal for 3046 AI: Ray will add a bugnote 2999 ============ from June 21 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - For number 30 on the list, 'no-mantis item 6' send email to Matt about linking this request to mantis 2991. AI/ALL - assigned leaders/champions to start looking at the top 25 items on the list and plan for proposals/discussions/reviews. ============ from June 7 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom - some examples would be useful [mantis 2987, soft constraints] AI/Cliff - what is actually required. [mantis 2117] Allow extending of covergroups in classes AI/Cliff, John H. - more details on this request, item number 30 [no mantis 6: allow re-use of enumerated names (slide 31) AI/All - find mantis items that can be closed, or easily resolved. - any of the 0.5h estimate items could be considered as well. ============ from May 24 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom and others: mantis 3002 AOP: any more clarifications from users perspective. AI/users: mantis 1356: Multiple inheritance:what are the particular requests? clarifications. AI/Tom - Mantis 3003, we need more clarification from user base ============ from May 10 2010 meeting =================== AI/Jonathan - create mantis items for No-Mantis-10. Completed action items: ============ from April 26 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - add a column for enhancement versus clarification AI/Mehdi - add a column for amount of work required. AI/Mehdi - add sheets for the various categores in the Google doc. AI/Mehdi - send out a link to the p1800 spreadsheet. AI/Mehdi - add a column for duplicates AI/All - send input on the list of categories. AI/ALL - until May 5th to provide any inputs on the spreadsheet. ============ from April 12 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - Look at the Google Docs and creaet spreadsheet for collaborative efforts. Also add cross committee column to the spreadsheet. AI/All - send inputs on any new items by April 24 2010, this is deadline for any item that is not already in the mantis database. AI/All - prioritize and categorize list of items that are in the spreadsheet to be reviewed during the next two sv-ec meetings. AI/Neil - email to cliff on proxy right --------------------------------------------- Summary table: Assigned Lead/Champions --------------------------------------------- 1 2848 Francoise 2 3002 Tom, Dave, Jonathan, Francoise, Arturo, Neil S., Cliff, Gord 3 3046 Gord, Franocise, Mark, Ray 4 1356 Tom [same with 3002] 5 3001 Jonathan, Tom, Francoise 6 2999 Tom, Ray, Arturo, 7 3003 [2987, 2988] Jonathan, Tom, Ray, Arturo, 8 3082 Daniel, Jonathan, 9 2845 Francoise, Mark, Alex Neil S., Gord? 10 2956 Steven, 11 2505 Neil S., Mark, Francoise 12 2735 Arturo, Steven, Gord, 13 1706 Mark, Steven, Francoise, 14 2488 Steven, Francoise, 15 2112 Dave, Steven, 16 3028 Arturo, Ray, Neil S., Mehdi, 17 2950 Francoise, 18 2794 Jonathan, Steven 19 2993 Tom, Ray, Swapnajit (cadence) 20 1442 Steven, 21 2953 Ray 22 1349 Steven 23 2949 Jonathan, Steven 24 2451 Steven, 25 2987 Jonathan (combining 2987, 2988, see 3003) ------------------------------------- [next 10] 26 3006 Ray, Steven, 27 3004 Tom 28 2998 Tom 29 2117 Cliff?? 30 No Mantis 6 could be linked with 2991 with sv-bc 31 2928 Ray, Arturo, 32 2787 ?? (Daniel)?? 33 2972 ?? (Daniel)?? 34 2996 Tom, 35 2988 already assigned (see 3003) 36 No Mantis 4 related to AOP (already covered) -------------------------------------------------------------- == List with estimates ======= hrs top 2t mantis Id 4 1 2848 12 2 3002 1 3 3046 16 4 1356 2 5 3001 3 6 2999 5 7 3003 8 8 3082 4 9 2845 0.5 10 2956 3 11 2505 4 12 2735 1 13 1706 2 14 2488 2 15 2112 2 16 3028 2 17 2950 1 18 2794 4 19 2993 0.5 20 1442 6 21 2953 0.5 22 1349 0.5 23 2949 4 24 2451 4 25 2987 92 total 46 (2hr sessions) 0.5 26 3006 4 27 3004 2 28 2998 4 29 2117 4 30 No Mantis 6 0.5 31 2928 4 32 2787 2 33 2972 2 34 2996 0 35 2988 0 36 No Mantis 4 23 total 11 sessions ====================================== top 25 Id Number of Votes weighted vote Summary Degrees of difficulty Cateogory Sub-Category 1 2848 7 159 Is it legal to assign an interface containing class declaration to a virtual interface med Virtual Interface and class 2 3002 8 125 Aspect Oriented Programming (AOP) features High class constraints 3 3046 8 112 Dotted names within inlined constraints Low class Strings/Arrays 4 1356 6 112 Multiple Inheritance High class Strings 5 3001 9 102 Proper Polymorphic behavior of instantiation low class Arrays 6 2999 7 99 Class Handle reference inside of Constraints med class constraints 7 3003 6 98 Constraint Composition High Randomization Strings 8 3082 7 96 (4) Ambiguity resolution (see slide 10 for examples of parts of the Standard that have been interpreted differently by different simulators) 9 2845 4 84 virtual interface type checking versus interface type that had been defparam'ed high Virtual Interface Misc / function proto 10 2956 4 76 clarify class 'process' definition (9.7 vs 18.13.3, 18.13.4, 18.13.5) low Process control 11 2505 4 76 class select: what is allowed after the dot? low class 12 2735 4 73 Ballot Comment #48: Chaining of method calls med class constraints 13 1706 4 72 Meaning of static prefix for virtual interface assignments Virtual Interfaces 14 2488 4 69 Are virtual method calls legal within class constructors? med VI OO classes 15 2112 6 69 Remove restrictions on NBA assigments to class members med class constraints 16 3028 6 68 constraints for unique array elements. Med Randomization 17 2950 4 67 virtual method prototype matching low class 18 2794 4 64 Clarify queue methods return status low class 19 2993 4 63 Cross cover points across different cover groups med Built-in Methods 20 1442 3 63 Clocking blocks legal in modports, missing from text description in 20.9 Functional Coverage 21 2953 6 61 Algorithmic generation of covergroup bin contents high clocking block 22 1349 5 61 fork/join_none: what if parent thread terminates without blocking statement? Functional Coverage 23 2949 4 60 LRM is silent about the semantics of referencing a clocking block output low Process control constraints 24 2451 6 58 Omitting body defaults med clocking block constraints 25 2987 6 56 Soft Constraints med class Misc / function proto 26 3006 5 55 LRM doesn't say explicitly what should happen if null pointer is randomized low class Data Types 27 3004 5 55 Ability to declare/qualify classes/methods/variables/constraints final med class Virtual Interface 28 2998 4 55 Solve Before enhanced low Randomization class 29 2117 3 52 Allow extending of covergroups in classes high Functional Coverage class 30 No Mantis 6 5 51 (3) Allow reuse of enumerated names (slide 31) cross-committee Randomization 31 2928 3 50 ambiguous restriction on function calls in constraint expressions low Randomization Randomization 32 2787 3 50 reference via scope operator to parametrized superclass item med class Randomization 33 2972 3 49 add class constructor/method, task/function overloading High class Randomization 34 2996 4 49 Method overloading High class Randomization 35 2988 2 48 Defaults Constraints med Randomization Process control 36 No Mantis 4 2 47 (1) AOP when-inheritance (slide 31) Class/AOP Functional Coverage