SV-EC Committee meeting Monday September 12, 2011 [ http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_September_12_2011_Minutes.txt ] Meeting number: 75% = 20 out of 25 meetings attended --------------- 22222221111111111000000000 65432109876543210987654321 Meeting Days: ------------- (12101202021211102021213101) Day (29518063951844762851730629) (00000000000000011111000000) Month (98887665544332121100998887) (11111111111111111111111111) Year (11111111111111100000000000) ------ Attendees ---------------------------- Members: 1. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Arturo Salz 26 - y Synopsys 2. (AAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAA-AA) Dave Rich 24 - y Mentor 3. (-AAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAA--AAAAA) Francoise Martinolle 22 - y Cadence 4. (AAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Mehdi Mohtashemi 25 - y Synopsys 5. (AAA-AAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Neil Korpusik 24 - y Oracle 6. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAA) Ray Ryan 25 - y Mentor 7. (-AAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAA) Gordon Vreugdenhil 24 - y Mentor 8. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAA) Steven Sharp 25 - y Cadence 9. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Mark Hartoog 26 - y Synopsys 10. (AAAA-A-AAA-AA-AAAAAAAAAA-A) Tom Alsop 20 - y Intel 11. (-AAA-A-AAAAAAA-AA--AAAA--A) Neil S 18 - y Marvel 12. (AAA-AAAAAAAA-A-AAAAAA-A--A) Alex Gran 20 - y Mentor 13. (AAA-AAAAA----AAAA-A-------) Brandon Tipp 13 - y Intel 14. (-AAAAA-AAAAAAAAAA---------) Scott Little 15 - y Freescale 15. (---------------------AAAAA) Swapnajit Chakraborti 5 Cadence 16. (----------A---------------) Dennis Brophy 1 Mentor 17. (-AAA-AAAA--AAAA---A-AAAAAA) Daniel Schostak 18 - y ARM 18. (--------AA----------------) Mike Burns 2 - Oracle 19. (---------------A----------) John Havlicek 1 Freescale 20. (AAAAA--AA-----------------) Stu Sutherland 7 - y Editor 21. (AA-AAAAA-----AA-AAAAAAAAAA) Jonathan Bromley 19 - y Accellera 22. (AAA-----------------------) Dhiraj Goswami 2 - y Synopsys 23. (-A------------------------) Dhruba Kalita 1 - Intel 24. (-A------------------------) Hassan Shehab 1 - Intel Observers: 1. (A------A-AA-A-AAAA--------) Tony Tsai 9 - Cisco 2. (-------A-AA-A-A-----------) Mark Strickland 5 - Cisco 3. (A-------------------------) Anatoli Sokhatski 1 - Cisco Former participants: 1. (-------------A-AAA---A--AA) Heath Chambers 7 2. (-------------AA--AA----AAA) Don Mills 7 3. (-------------A-----A-AAAAA) Cliff Cummings 7 Sunburst 4. (-------------AA-AA-AAAA---) Linc Jepson 8 5. (---------------A----------) Dave Gates 1 AMD 17 people will have voting rights in the next meeting http://standards.ieee.org/develop/corpchan/mbrs1.html // IEEE-SA members ** Minutes taken by Neil Korpusik and Mehdi Mohtashemi ////////////////// September 12 2011 ///////////////////////// Agenda 0. Approval of Agenda ------------------------------------------------------ Additions/modifications to the agenda by members. Move: Ray to approve the agenda Second: Dave Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved. Add in the following items: 1091 by Dave 3001 Jonathan 2900 Dave 1. Review IEEE patent policy ------------------------------------------------------ http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.ppt The chair brought everyone's attention to the patent policy. Move: Steven to consider it read Second: Dave Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved 2. Approval of previous meeting minutes: --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_August_15_2011_Minutes.txt August 29th will be uploaded later. Move: Dave to approve August 15 2011 and august 1st. Second: Mark Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved August 29th will be uploaded later. 3. Updates from P1800 WG [september 8 2011 meeting] --------------------------------------------------------- meeting on September 8 2011 Neil: There won't be a September draft (it was moved to December) The next draft will be Nov 6 Oct 1st - all TC's freeze except svcc Nov 18th - svcc freezes (allows the svcc to react to changes from other TC's) Interfaces - there might be a new technical committee to deal with this. The WG will not be approving anything, but the TC could resolve mantis items. 4a. Continue Review and discussion of top 25 issues and categories: ------------------------------------------------------ Review of the top 25 [+10+3]; 9 have been approved. 1356 Interface Classes [Multiple inheritance] [Tom, Brandon] 1356_Interface_Classes_rev11.pdf email vote did not approve this., will review in the meeting. Mehdi - it did not pass in the email vote . Steven found an issue. Brandon - had a concern with the proposed change. Steven - wasn't concerned about the case Brandon raised. - His concern was with inheriting and implementing from an interface if there is a conflict. Does it say must "provide an implementation". Don't want to explicitly provide a new prototype since it has been inherited. Mehdi - only a few sentences were updated. Plans to put rev 12 up for a vote. A new proposal was uploaded during the meeting. 8.25.6.1 "which is simultaneously" -- moved "is" to Move: Dave to approve 1356_Interface_Classes_rev12.pdf Second: Arturo Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved 2987 Soft Constraints [Tom] Steven - did not see any hits in his regression suite when checking for 'soft' used as a keyword. Ray - had a suggested change for disabling soft constraints. One of our engineers suggested the following syntax for discarding (disabling) soft constraints - as an alternative to the special interpretation of "soft dist". disable soft x; This could also support disabling the soft constraints for a list of variables. disable soft x, y, z; 'disable' is already a keyword. This would make 'soft' a keyword. Arturo - dist is currently always hard. the 'inside' part is hard. Ray - if knock out a constraint what happens with the remaining weights? Arturo - that isn't well defined. Ray - thinks there are some places in the LRM where it alludes to dist being hard today. The LRM isn't quite clear on this point. - want a dist constraint, if want it to be soft, a higher level constraint could conflict, so that the inside soft constraint could be ignored. Can't do that with the current proposal. Dhirag - soft is a way to bias constraints. Jonathan - say user wants existing stuff and would like to take out some portion of that. It looks like soft wouldn't do that. Arturo - allowing the capability to broaden the range is a key component of the proposal. - there is already a disabling capability. Brandon - need to disable existing soft constraints in order to add a new set of soft constraints. - would like to make illegal values soft. That allows for error testing later. Dhiraj - can use soft inside for that (?) Brandon - 2 distributions on the same variable is not well defined today. Dhiraj - their users have been requesting that one set of soft will override what was also originally soft. - need to have predictable biasing. Brandon - a 'statement' is what is made soft, which could affect multiple variables. - Prefers if there is a way to disable particular constraints instead of getting rid of all existing soft constraints. Dhiraj - if sure about this, should put the constraint in a constraint block and disable that. Jon - don't want to zap the whole lot just to change the distribution. Arturo - for soft we are defining a well defined mechanism. The current situation for mult dists is not well defined. Prefers not to try to define all of that today. - what is in the proposal is what they understood users to want. Dhiraj - verification ip writers - gave input if use dist, ignore other existing softs - if do things selectively it would open up more complications. Brandon - concerned about blowing away existing soft constraints. There could be several that get wiped out. - soft x dist soft x == y Arturo - a soft constraint of lower priority that is contradicted by a higher priority constraint should get blown away. - soft constraints apply to expressions. Ray - soft z==y && b==b - if any of those variables gets reset, the whole constraint is reset. Brandon - library owner, environment owner, test writer -- all of these affected Ray - can see problems with controlling individual expressions. Mehdi - reset soft is an existing mechanism? Dhiragj - e has something called soft select. Dhiraj - this proposal is not defining something completely new. Brandon - has had similar concerns with e. The reset is done very broad. Dhiraj - can use hard dist if concerned about the reset mechanism of soft. Brandon - would like to see soft constraints make it into the language, but has concerns with this approach. Ray - was concerned about soft being a keyword. also had a concern about how the reset was being done. Brandon - would rather have soft constraints than not have them. would like to disable on a per variable basis. Ray - prefers that 'soft' be a keyword Alex - prefers to not use the label approach which is in the proposal. - opens the door for using labels in a way that he doesn't like. Dhiraj - had a concern about backward compatibility. Prefers a keyword if there isn't a backward compatibility problem 2988 Defaults Constraints [Tom] 2988 (morphed into soft constraints) 2900: Arturo - has an issue with one sentence that remains in the proposal. - agrees with the first change: "An entry for a nonexistent associative array element shall be allocated when it is used as the target of an assignment or actual to an argument passed by reference." - Has an issue with the way it is written in 7.8.7 - "Some constructs perform both a read and write operation" - we get the default value if reading a non-existing entry. - "In those cases, the nonexistent element shall be allocated with its default" This is the part he was disagreeing with. Steven - there is an odd corner case that does exist. - the '++' case Arturo - concerned about cases where just a read takes place. why should it be created if only doing a read? - a[1]++ // the entry is only created AFTER reading the // default value and then incrementing the default. The proposal implies that it is created BEFORE reading it. - For most cases you would get the same results. Dave - passing a non-existing array element by reference can be a problem. Arturo - didn't see a problem with this... AI/Dave - will try to update it (beginning of next week) will not be in the next meeting. 3001: Jonathan - Gord had an issue with allowing an expression. - The latest proposal is more restrictive. Arturo - what if there is a cast, like Steven suggested? Jonathan - that would be illegal. Arturo - there would be a bunch of issues trying to go that route. - could the example be shortened? AI/Mehdi - put it up for email vote, along with 1091. 2900 if it gets updated. 5. Next meetings 2011 ----------------------------------------------------- Monday September 26 2011 Regular biweekly Monday October 10 2011 Regular biweekly Monday October 24 2011 Regular biweekly FOR References: --------------------------------------------------------------------- =========== from September 12 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2900 Dave will try to update it (beginning of next week) AI: put up for email vote: 1091, 2900 Mehdi =========== from August 29 2011 meeting =================== =========== from August 15 2011 meeting =================== AI: 3531 Mark to finalize the modified proposal. AI: 2848 Mehdi to ask the p1800WG to look into this how to resolve and discuss. AI: 2905,3394 Mehdi to ask members to review/discuss by email. =========== from August 1 2011 meeting =================== AI: 256 Scott to send an email to sv-ec and poll Brad and Shalom for their comments. =========== from July 18 2011 meeting =================== =========== from June 20 2011 meeting =================== AI: Mehdi, find out from Stu a compiled list of items in draft =========== from June 6 2011 meeting =================== AI: 1356 Brandon: to upload the modified document AI: 3531 Mark : create the modified proposal. - create an sv-ec mantis item for editorial issues =========== from May 23 2011 meeting =================== AI: Mehdi - create an sv-ec mantis item for editorial issues [already done: mantis 3589 ] AI: 1356 Tom to put an example for virtual class extending an IC, virtual classes extending IC is same as extending another virtual class. =========== from May 9 2011 meeting =================== AI: (3278) Francoise to update the 3278 proposal AI: (3293) Arturo - update the proposal in preparation for an email vote. =========== from April 25 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 Scott and Mike to update the restrictions (straw poll) =========== from April 11 2011 meeting =================== AI: 3181 unanimously approved AI: 3297 unanimously approved. AI: 2985 unanimously approve: CLOSE as duplicate of 245 AI: 245 CLOSE 245 as already implemented vote: yes Abstain: Gord: The summary says array of queues - not sure that what exists is as general as what was requested. Persistence of elements is a key point with this. AI: 3254 Dave:change the coloring, also no underlining, and add mantis item to the top of the proposal. AI: 2952 unanimously approved AI: 3405 Mehdi The proposal needs be deleted, [Close as duplicate of 2952] AI: 3230 Mehdi contact the svbc - the svec wants to take ownership of 3230 AI: 3230 Gord will update 3230 and scrub related text for any additional changes that might be required. AI: 2900 Dave to update the proposal. =========== from March 28 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 Scott to get more input from the user community (Freescale). All, Please respond when information hits the reflector. All, Please consult with the users to get their feedback. =========== from March 14 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 All - Scott to send out clarification email to the alias. =========== from February 14 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 All - discuss this proposal over email. =========== from January 17 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2848 Mehdi - hold this off for the next 3 or 4 sessions. AI: 1356 Tom/Team state the differences between extensions and inheritance. ============ from December 6 2010 meeting =================== AI: 2845 Francoise - update the proposal with these changes. AI: 2848 Francoise - update the proposal with these changes. AI: 1356 Tom - update the proposal with some of the issues being raised. AI: 1356 all - review the new proposal before the next meeting. ============ from November 22 2010 meeting =================== AI: 2848, 2845; Franocoise update the proposals. AI: 2505; Neil S., update the proposal. AI: 2506; put the proposal into the required format AI: everyone to review and be ready to discuss during next time. ============ from November 8 2010 meeting =================== AI: Minutes; Mehdi - will check for consistency between the left and right sides for the attendance. AI: for 1356 Multiple Inheritance (interface classes) Mehdi - will make a request to the WG on this. General statement about being allowed to work on mantis items that are affected. AI: Jonathan - NULL within $cast AI: Gord - the OVM people would like to have that. Covariant and Contravarianct type extensions. you allow method that do not allow exact type signature of over-written method, but can return the objects of the type of original return type, impact of that would be on Interface classes. AI: Gord - Overwriting of virtual method section AI: Tom - update the proposal (to number 4) ============ from October 25 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1356 Tom - update the proposal, make corrections and more normative text. All - provide more detailed feedback to Tom. ============ from October 11 2010 meeting =================== AI: related to 2505 All - should we allow enum constants to be accessed by the dot? AI: 2953 Mehdi - make 2953 a child of 2506 Mehdi - make a request in this week's P1800 meeting to work on 2506 AI: 2080, 1672, 802 Neil - update the mantis items (3 of them) AI: 251 Mehdi, leave mantis 251 open AI: 2794 Mehdi, reopen mantis item for feedback Jonathan: update AI: 2949 Jonathan: send email to Brad to get clarification on his feedback. ============ from September 27 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3003 Tom - will get feedback on specific examples. (see 18.7 for information on the with-clause) AI: 3003 Jonathan - will get an email discussion going. ============ from September 13 2010 meeting =================== AI: Coverage item Swapnajit - will provide a note for clarification, to be added to Mantis 1802 AI: Coverage item Swapnajit - will put together a proposal for this issue. [related to 19.5.3 wildcard specification] AI: 2848 Francoise - Will do a write-up for this proposal. AI: 2845 Francoise - will try to write-up for this. ============ from August 30 2010 meeting =================== AI:2956 Mehdi making a note to the editor for adding cross reference. AI: 2794 Jonathan will make the friendly amendment. AI:3028 Jonathan create a proposal and upload it for more discussion and vote next meeting. ============ from August 16 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3028 Jonathan - write up the parallel proposals. AI: 2794 Jonathan - add text for the case where indices are x, z AI: 1442 Steven - check if Shalom's comments make this issue moot. AI: 1349 Steven: create the proposal for 1349 AI: 2451 Steven put a proposal together. AI: 2993 Tom; will check internally to see if these meet their needs AI: 2993 Mehdi; upload the email as a note to the mantis item AI: 2993 Arturo; will donate their implementation. ============ from Aguust 2 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1706 Steven put together an email for bc to provide feedback on 4 options Mehdi can send to sv-bc AI: 2993 Swapnajit: add a note to the mantis item as to where we currently are in the process. AI: 2953 Ray - take a look at this one ============ from July 19 2010 meeting =================== AI:Tom get confirmation from users about exact intent of the original request for 3001 AI: Francoise will add a note to the mantis item 2848 AI: Gord will write up a proposal for 3046 AI: Ray will add a bugnote 2999 ============ from June 21 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - For number 30 on the list, 'no-mantis item 6' send email to Matt about linking this request to mantis 2991. AI/ALL - assigned leaders/champions to start looking at the top 25 items on the list and plan for proposals/discussions/reviews. ============ from June 7 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom - some examples would be useful [mantis 2987, soft constraints] AI/Cliff - what is actually required. [mantis 2117] Allow extending of covergroups in classes AI/Cliff, John H. - more details on this request, item number 30 [no mantis 6: allow re-use of enumerated names (slide 31) AI/All - find mantis items that can be closed, or easily resolved. - any of the 0.5h estimate items could be considered as well. ============ from May 24 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom and others: mantis 3002 AOP: any more clarifications from users perspective. AI/users: mantis 1356: Multiple inheritance:what are the particular requests? clarifications. AI/Tom - Mantis 3003, we need more clarification from user base ============ from May 10 2010 meeting =================== AI/Jonathan - create mantis items for No-Mantis-10. Completed action items: ============ from April 26 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - add a column for enhancement versus clarification AI/Mehdi - add a column for amount of work required. AI/Mehdi - add sheets for the various categores in the Google doc. AI/Mehdi - send out a link to the p1800 spreadsheet. AI/Mehdi - add a column for duplicates AI/All - send input on the list of categories. AI/ALL - until May 5th to provide any inputs on the spreadsheet. ============ from April 12 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - Look at the Google Docs and creaet spreadsheet for collaborative efforts. Also add cross committee column to the spreadsheet. AI/All - send inputs on any new items by April 24 2010, this is deadline for any item that is not already in the mantis database. AI/All - prioritize and categorize list of items that are in the spreadsheet to be reviewed during the next two sv-ec meetings. AI/Neil - email to cliff on proxy right --------------------------------------------- Summary table: Assigned Lead/Champions --------------------------------------------- 1 2848 Francoise 2 3002 Tom, Dave, Jonathan, Francoise, Arturo, Neil S., Cliff, Gord 3 3046 Gord, Franocise, Mark, Ray 4 1356 Tom [same with 3002] 5 3001 Jonathan, Tom, Francoise 6 2999 Tom, Ray, Arturo, 7 3003 [2987, 2988] Jonathan, Tom, Ray, Arturo, 8 3082 Daniel, Jonathan, 9 2845 Francoise, Mark, Alex Neil S., Gord? 10 2956 Steven, 11 2505 Neil S., Mark, Francoise 12 2735 Arturo, Steven, Gord, 13 1706 Mark, Steven, Francoise, 14 2488 Steven, Francoise, 15 2112 Dave, Steven, 16 3028 Arturo, Ray, Neil S., Mehdi, 17 2950 Francoise, 18 2794 Jonathan, Steven 19 2993 Tom, Ray, Swapnajit (cadence) 20 1442 Steven, 21 2953 Ray 22 1349 Steven 23 2949 Jonathan, Steven 24 2451 Steven, 25 2987 Jonathan (combining 2987, 2988, see 3003) ------------------------------------- [next 10] 26 3006 Ray, Steven, 27 3004 Tom 28 2998 Tom 29 2117 Cliff?? 30 No Mantis 6 could be linked with 2991 with sv-bc 31 2928 Ray, Arturo, 32 2787 ?? (Daniel)?? 33 2972 ?? (Daniel)?? 34 2996 Tom, 35 2988 already assigned (see 3003) 36 No Mantis 4 related to AOP (already covered) -------------------------------------------------------------- == List with estimates ======= hrs top 2t mantis Id 4 1 2848 12 2 3002 1 3 3046 16 4 1356 2 5 3001 3 6 2999 5 7 3003 8 8 3082 4 9 2845 0.5 10 2956 3 11 2505 4 12 2735 1 13 1706 2 14 2488 2 15 2112 2 16 3028 2 17 2950 1 18 2794 4 19 2993 0.5 20 1442 6 21 2953 0.5 22 1349 0.5 23 2949 4 24 2451 4 25 2987 92 total 46 (2hr sessions) 0.5 26 3006 4 27 3004 2 28 2998 4 29 2117 4 30 No Mantis 6 0.5 31 2928 4 32 2787 2 33 2972 2 34 2996 0 35 2988 0 36 No Mantis 4 23 total 11 sessions ====================================== top 25 Id Number of Votes weighted vote Summary Degrees of difficulty Cateogory Sub-Category 1 2848 7 159 Is it legal to assign an interface containing class declaration to a virtual interface med Virtual Interface and class 2 3002 8 125 Aspect Oriented Programming (AOP) features High class constraints 3 3046 8 112 Dotted names within inlined constraints Low class Strings/Arrays 4 1356 6 112 Multiple Inheritance High class Strings 5 3001 9 102 Proper Polymorphic behavior of instantiation low class Arrays 6 2999 7 99 Class Handle reference inside of Constraints med class constraints 7 3003 6 98 Constraint Composition High Randomization Strings 8 3082 7 96 (4) Ambiguity resolution (see slide 10 for examples of parts of the Standard that have been interpreted differently by different simulators) 9 2845 4 84 virtual interface type checking versus interface type that had been defparam'ed high Virtual Interface Misc / function proto 10 2956 4 76 clarify class 'process' definition (9.7 vs 18.13.3, 18.13.4, 18.13.5) low Process control 11 2505 4 76 class select: what is allowed after the dot? low class 12 2735 4 73 Ballot Comment #48: Chaining of method calls med class constraints 13 1706 4 72 Meaning of static prefix for virtual interface assignments Virtual Interfaces 14 2488 4 69 Are virtual method calls legal within class constructors? med VI OO classes 15 2112 6 69 Remove restrictions on NBA assigments to class members med class constraints 16 3028 6 68 constraints for unique array elements. Med Randomization 17 2950 4 67 virtual method prototype matching low class 18 2794 4 64 Clarify queue methods return status low class 19 2993 4 63 Cross cover points across different cover groups med Built-in Methods 20 1442 3 63 Clocking blocks legal in modports, missing from text description in 20.9 Functional Coverage 21 2953 6 61 Algorithmic generation of covergroup bin contents high clocking block 22 1349 5 61 fork/join_none: what if parent thread terminates without blocking statement? Functional Coverage 23 2949 4 60 LRM is silent about the semantics of referencing a clocking block output low Process control constraints 24 2451 6 58 Omitting body defaults med clocking block constraints 25 2987 6 56 Soft Constraints med class Misc / function proto 26 3006 5 55 LRM doesn't say explicitly what should happen if null pointer is randomized low class Data Types 27 3004 5 55 Ability to declare/qualify classes/methods/variables/constraints final med class Virtual Interface 28 2998 4 55 Solve Before enhanced low Randomization class 29 2117 3 52 Allow extending of covergroups in classes high Functional Coverage class 30 No Mantis 6 5 51 (3) Allow reuse of enumerated names (slide 31) cross-committee Randomization 31 2928 3 50 ambiguous restriction on function calls in constraint expressions low Randomization Randomization 32 2787 3 50 reference via scope operator to parametrized superclass item med class Randomization 33 2972 3 49 add class constructor/method, task/function overloading High class Randomization 34 2996 4 49 Method overloading High class Randomization 35 2988 2 48 Defaults Constraints med Randomization Process control 36 No Mantis 4 2 47 (1) AOP when-inheritance (slide 31) Class/AOP Functional Coverage