SV-EC Committee meeting Monday September 26, 2011 [ http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_September_26_2011_Minutes.txt ] Meeting number: 75% = 20 out of 27 meetings attended --------------- 222222221111111111000000000 765432109876543210987654321 Meeting Days: ------------- (212101202021211102021213101) Day (629518063951844762851730629) (000000000000000011111000000) Month (998887665544332121100998887) (111111111111111111111111111) Year (111111111111111100000000000) ------ Attendees ---------------------------- Members: 1. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Arturo Salz 27 - y Synopsys 2. (-AAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAA-AA) Dave Rich 24 - y Mentor 3. (A-AAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAA--AAAAA) Francoise Martinolle 23 - y Cadence 4. (AAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Mehdi Mohtashemi 26 - y Synopsys 5. (AAAA-AAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Neil Korpusik 25 - y Oracle 6. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAA) Ray Ryan 26 - y Mentor 7. (A-AAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAA) Gordon Vreugdenhil 24 - y Mentor 8. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAA) Steven Sharp 26 - y Cadence 9. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) Mark Hartoog 27 - y Synopsys 10. (aAAAA-A-AAA-AA-AAAAAAAAAA-A) Tom Alsop 21 - y Intel 11. (A-AAA-A-AAAAAAA-AA--AAAA--A) Neil S 19 - y Marvel 12. (AAAA-AAAAAAAA-A-AAAAAA-A--A) Alex Gran 21 - y Mentor 13. (AAAA-AAAAA----AAAA-A-------) Brandon Tipp 14 - y Intel 14. (A-AAAAA-AAAAAAAAAA---------) Scott Little 16 - y Freescale 15. (----------------------AAAAA) Swapnajit Chakraborti 5 Cadence 16. (-----------A---------------) Dennis Brophy 1 Mentor 17. (--AAA-AAAA--AAAA---A-AAAAAA) Daniel Schostak 18 - ARM 18. (---------AA----------------) Mike Burns 2 - Oracle 19. (----------------A----------) John Havlicek 1 Freescale 20. (-AAAAA--AA-----------------) Stu Sutherland 7 - y Editor 21. (-AA-AAAAA-----AA-AAAAAAAAAA) Jonathan Bromley 19 - y Accellera 22. (AAAA-----------------------) Dhiraj Goswami 4 - y Synopsys 23. (A-A------------------------) Dhruba Kalita 1 - Intel 24. (--A------------------------) Hassan Shehab 1 - Intel 25. (A--------------------------) Hillel Miller 1 - Frescale Observers: 1. (AA------A-AA-A-AAAA--------) Tony Tsai 10 - Cisco 2. (--------A-AA-A-A-----------) Mark Strickland 5 - Cisco 3. (AA-------------------------) Anatoli Sokhatski 2 - Cisco Former participants: 1. (--------------A-AAA---A--AA) Heath Chambers 7 2. (--------------AA--AA----AAA) Don Mills 7 3. (--------------A-----A-AAAAA) Cliff Cummings 7 Sunburst 4. (--------------AA-AA-AAAA---) Linc Jepson 8 5. (----------------A----------) Dave Gates 1 AMD 17 people will have voting rights in the next meeting http://standards.ieee.org/develop/corpchan/mbrs1.html // IEEE-SA members ** Minutes taken by Neil Korpusik and Mehdi Mohtashemi ////////////////// September 26 2011 ///////////////////////// Agenda 0. Approval of Agenda ------------------------------------------------------ Additions/modifications to the agenda by members. 3230 task should be function in definition of static functions has a proposal The sv-ec was planning to make additional changes (not done). This list of completed mantis items didn't make it to the agenda "completed" mantis items - need to be reviewed 1. 3254 2. 2950 3. 2956 4. 2949 5. 2451 6. 1349 "feedback" mantis items 1. 2506 was updated based on champions feedback 2. 3278 Need to address champions feedback 3. 3293 Need to address champions feedback 4. 2905 Need to address champions feedback 5. 2505 Need to address champions feedback 6. 3028 There were comments from the Champions - could go to WG 7. 251 Champions questioned if it is actually a duplicate of another. 8. 2735 Was left open from the last PAR. 9. 2737 Was left open from the last PAR. 10. 2694 Was left open from the last PAR. Move: Scott to approve the agenda Second: Tom Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved. 1. Review IEEE patent policy ------------------------------------------------------ http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.ppt The chair brought everyone's attention to the patent policy. Move: Tom to consider it read Second: Gordon Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved 2. Approval of previous meeting minutes: --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_August_29_2011_Minutes.txt http://www.eda.org/sv-ec/Minutes/SV-EC_Meeting_September_12_2011_Minutes.txt August 29th September 12th Neither was approved.... (skipped) 3. Updates from P1800 WG [september 8 2011 meeting] --------------------------------------------------------- next meeting October 27 2011 4a. Continue Review and discussion of top 25 issues and categories: ------------------------------------------------------ Review of the top 25 [+10+3]; 9 have been approved. Email vote result: 3001 Proper Polymorphic behavior of instantiation Passed (10 votes) 1091 Close as already implemented [Jeda verification enhancements] Passed (10 votes) 2900 Associative array should consider the context of an lvalue to create an entry Mehdi - Neil voted no Neil - wanted to make sure people know the proposal wasn't updated based on the issue raised in our last conference call. Arturo - reviewed the original discussion thinks we did agree to what Dave had. Move: Arturo approve proposal for 2900 Second: Gordon Abstain: Opposed: Unanimoulsy approved 1442 Clocking blocks legal in modports, missing from text description in 20.9 Close as duplicate of 1439 Mehdi - Neil voted no. We were trying to close both as duplicates of each other. Mehdi - we will leave it open 2987 Soft Constraints [Tom] Mehdi - a new version was uploaded on Sunday. Anatoli - raised a couple of points Brandon - soft constraint will automatically be overridden if there is a conflict. Anatoli - x = 2,5 (soft) x = 5:8 (hard) Brandon - the proposal allows all soft constraints to be disabled. Ray - soft constraints versus default constraints is what the concern is about. - default constraints should be somewhat orthogonal to the soft constraints. We could possibly add that later. Arturo - decided to not add that to this proposal due to various complications that would arise. Steve - at end of 18.5.13.1 there is the following: And it must satisfy the following properties: - If a call to randomize only involves soft constraints the call can never fail. - If the soft constrains do not exhibit any contradictions then the result is the same as if all constraints were declared hard. Steve - if all soft, and it doesn't solve, all of the constraints would be ignored. Francoise- the word constraint is not spelled properly (at least 8) Gord - keyword bolding and coloring is not correct either. - the first example has an issue as well. Arturo - was planning to let the Editor make any needed requests with regards to text formatting and coloring. Hillel - brought up the question about 2 types of constraints Brandon - that would be similar to default constraints which we decided to leave for next time. Gord - a foreach loop doesn't get unrolled. Ray - when a loop has 5 constraints and loops twice, what happens? that corner case isn't well defined in the proposal. Steven - should be based on execution order. Associative arrays get tricky since no ordering rules defined for the index. Ray - array of length 3, constraints that are limiting to 2 values and all are suppose to be unique. Steven - execution order of index seems to be the way to define it. Ray - undefined for associative arrays? Steven - some assoc arrays have an index where an ordering is defined. - wildcard - are all integral - there should be a defined order Steven - For the foreach loop: Priority is assigned in the order in which execution occurs. The first to execute "appears" first (lower priority). Ray - we do want to allow soft constraints with foreach loops. Francoise- it would be simpler to make it illegal. Ray - for the foreach loop, ordering usually doesn't matter. Steven - could just warn users about the associative array case. Arturo - "soft constraints in a foreach loop will have a priority defined by iteration order. Later iterations have a higher priority." Steven - for some constructs iteration loops are implementation dependent (associative arrays with an index type that doesn't have >< defined for it (e.g. class, struct)). Francoise- "Constraints within the scope of the same construct - constraint block, class, or struct - are assigned a priority relative to their syntactic declaration order. Constraint expressions that appear later in the construct have higher priority" - what if there is a forward typedef for a class Arturo - that doesn't affect anything Ray - the syntactic order only applies to within the same scope Steven - the class example would create a separate scope. Steven - could there be an issue with import? Ray - a constraint can't be imported. Francoise- asked about how the algorithm proceeds when there are soft constraints (e.g. the ordering of the algorithm). Steven - his mental image of goal. 2**N possible solution - could be very inefficient to solve line up the constraints, <0-off, 1-on> Largest binary number for which you can solve. Could do a binary search for that number (for optimizing). Gord - we all are aware there can be difficulties solving quickly. Steven - if we go into this not sure that the disable will work right, has a concern that we might be going down the wrong track. This proposal is coming in late in the process. Not sure we should be putting this in the LRM at this late stage. Francoise- has a similar concern. The disable is declarative. Other situations have procedural calls. Dhiraj - this is not new, others have used this for a long time. The community is used to this. Arturo - the solution is currently in use. - This SV extension was requested by the user community. - this was not defined by committee. - Standardizing an existing implementation. Steven - in the last discussion there was talk about disabling for a variable. Now we backed off due to concerns discovered. - has a concern about corner cases. Arturo - MI was added, without there being an implementation. Mehdi - the whole LRM has corner cases... Steven - doesn't believe this proposal has been reviewed adequately - we have a lot of issues that we are deadlocked on due to decisions made early on. Dhiraj - people could expand upon what is here. This provides a framework. Steven - can interface classes have constraints? Gord - no. Brandon - Interface classes don't allow variables. Ray - constraint composition is done by inheritance. Steven - can use with, but it is still statically present in the code. - mostly concerned about the shortness of time to review it. Gord - would like to get a roll call before the vote. Move: Arturo Move to approve the proposal for 2987 (v5) Second: Ray Abstain: Francoise [not enough time to fully understand the proposal, disable soft], Neil S.[not understand historical reasoning] Neil K. [have not read it in detail, and not enough time to review] Scott [have not read it in detail] Opposed: Steven [Doesn't have a specific technical issue, concerned about some aspects of it, thinks more time is required. In favor: Gord, Arturo, Ray, Mark, Brandon, Alex, Dhiraj, Dhruba. 3230 task should be function in definition of static functions has a proposal The sv-ec was planning to make additional changes (not done). Mehdi - ok to send it to the champions. 5. Next meetings 2011 ----------------------------------------------------- Monday October 10 2011 Regular biweekly Monday October 24 2011 Regular biweekly FOR References: --------------------------------------------------------------------- =========== from September 12 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2900 Dave will try to update it (beginning of next week) AI: put up for email vote: 1091, 2900 Mehdi =========== from August 29 2011 meeting =================== =========== from August 15 2011 meeting =================== AI: 3531 Mark to finalize the modified proposal. AI: 2848 Mehdi to ask the p1800WG to look into this how to resolve and discuss. AI: 2905,3394 Mehdi to ask members to review/discuss by email. =========== from August 1 2011 meeting =================== AI: 256 Scott to send an email to sv-ec and poll Brad and Shalom for their comments. =========== from July 18 2011 meeting =================== =========== from June 20 2011 meeting =================== AI: Mehdi, find out from Stu a compiled list of items in draft =========== from June 6 2011 meeting =================== AI: 1356 Brandon: to upload the modified document AI: 3531 Mark : create the modified proposal. - create an sv-ec mantis item for editorial issues =========== from May 23 2011 meeting =================== AI: Mehdi - create an sv-ec mantis item for editorial issues [already done: mantis 3589 ] AI: 1356 Tom to put an example for virtual class extending an IC, virtual classes extending IC is same as extending another virtual class. =========== from May 9 2011 meeting =================== AI: (3278) Francoise to update the 3278 proposal AI: (3293) Arturo - update the proposal in preparation for an email vote. =========== from April 25 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 Scott and Mike to update the restrictions (straw poll) =========== from April 11 2011 meeting =================== AI: 3181 unanimously approved AI: 3297 unanimously approved. AI: 2985 unanimously approve: CLOSE as duplicate of 245 AI: 245 CLOSE 245 as already implemented vote: yes Abstain: Gord: The summary says array of queues - not sure that what exists is as general as what was requested. Persistence of elements is a key point with this. AI: 3254 Dave:change the coloring, also no underlining, and add mantis item to the top of the proposal. AI: 2952 unanimously approved AI: 3405 Mehdi The proposal needs be deleted, [Close as duplicate of 2952] AI: 3230 Mehdi contact the svbc - the svec wants to take ownership of 3230 AI: 3230 Gord will update 3230 and scrub related text for any additional changes that might be required. AI: 2900 Dave to update the proposal. =========== from March 28 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 Scott to get more input from the user community (Freescale). All, Please respond when information hits the reflector. All, Please consult with the users to get their feedback. =========== from March 14 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 All - Scott to send out clarification email to the alias. =========== from February 14 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2506 All - discuss this proposal over email. =========== from January 17 2011 meeting =================== AI: 2848 Mehdi - hold this off for the next 3 or 4 sessions. AI: 1356 Tom/Team state the differences between extensions and inheritance. ============ from December 6 2010 meeting =================== AI: 2845 Francoise - update the proposal with these changes. AI: 2848 Francoise - update the proposal with these changes. AI: 1356 Tom - update the proposal with some of the issues being raised. AI: 1356 all - review the new proposal before the next meeting. ============ from November 22 2010 meeting =================== AI: 2848, 2845; Franocoise update the proposals. AI: 2505; Neil S., update the proposal. AI: 2506; put the proposal into the required format AI: everyone to review and be ready to discuss during next time. ============ from November 8 2010 meeting =================== AI: Minutes; Mehdi - will check for consistency between the left and right sides for the attendance. AI: for 1356 Multiple Inheritance (interface classes) Mehdi - will make a request to the WG on this. General statement about being allowed to work on mantis items that are affected. AI: Jonathan - NULL within $cast AI: Gord - the OVM people would like to have that. Covariant and Contravarianct type extensions. you allow method that do not allow exact type signature of over-written method, but can return the objects of the type of original return type, impact of that would be on Interface classes. AI: Gord - Overwriting of virtual method section AI: Tom - update the proposal (to number 4) ============ from October 25 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1356 Tom - update the proposal, make corrections and more normative text. All - provide more detailed feedback to Tom. ============ from October 11 2010 meeting =================== AI: related to 2505 All - should we allow enum constants to be accessed by the dot? AI: 2953 Mehdi - make 2953 a child of 2506 Mehdi - make a request in this week's P1800 meeting to work on 2506 AI: 2080, 1672, 802 Neil - update the mantis items (3 of them) AI: 251 Mehdi, leave mantis 251 open AI: 2794 Mehdi, reopen mantis item for feedback Jonathan: update AI: 2949 Jonathan: send email to Brad to get clarification on his feedback. ============ from September 27 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3003 Tom - will get feedback on specific examples. (see 18.7 for information on the with-clause) AI: 3003 Jonathan - will get an email discussion going. ============ from September 13 2010 meeting =================== AI: Coverage item Swapnajit - will provide a note for clarification, to be added to Mantis 1802 AI: Coverage item Swapnajit - will put together a proposal for this issue. [related to 19.5.3 wildcard specification] AI: 2848 Francoise - Will do a write-up for this proposal. AI: 2845 Francoise - will try to write-up for this. ============ from August 30 2010 meeting =================== AI:2956 Mehdi making a note to the editor for adding cross reference. AI: 2794 Jonathan will make the friendly amendment. AI:3028 Jonathan create a proposal and upload it for more discussion and vote next meeting. ============ from August 16 2010 meeting =================== AI: 3028 Jonathan - write up the parallel proposals. AI: 2794 Jonathan - add text for the case where indices are x, z AI: 1442 Steven - check if Shalom's comments make this issue moot. AI: 1349 Steven: create the proposal for 1349 AI: 2451 Steven put a proposal together. AI: 2993 Tom; will check internally to see if these meet their needs AI: 2993 Mehdi; upload the email as a note to the mantis item AI: 2993 Arturo; will donate their implementation. ============ from Aguust 2 2010 meeting =================== AI: 1706 Steven put together an email for bc to provide feedback on 4 options Mehdi can send to sv-bc AI: 2993 Swapnajit: add a note to the mantis item as to where we currently are in the process. AI: 2953 Ray - take a look at this one ============ from July 19 2010 meeting =================== AI:Tom get confirmation from users about exact intent of the original request for 3001 AI: Francoise will add a note to the mantis item 2848 AI: Gord will write up a proposal for 3046 AI: Ray will add a bugnote 2999 ============ from June 21 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - For number 30 on the list, 'no-mantis item 6' send email to Matt about linking this request to mantis 2991. AI/ALL - assigned leaders/champions to start looking at the top 25 items on the list and plan for proposals/discussions/reviews. ============ from June 7 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom - some examples would be useful [mantis 2987, soft constraints] AI/Cliff - what is actually required. [mantis 2117] Allow extending of covergroups in classes AI/Cliff, John H. - more details on this request, item number 30 [no mantis 6: allow re-use of enumerated names (slide 31) AI/All - find mantis items that can be closed, or easily resolved. - any of the 0.5h estimate items could be considered as well. ============ from May 24 2010 meeting =================== AI/Tom and others: mantis 3002 AOP: any more clarifications from users perspective. AI/users: mantis 1356: Multiple inheritance:what are the particular requests? clarifications. AI/Tom - Mantis 3003, we need more clarification from user base ============ from May 10 2010 meeting =================== AI/Jonathan - create mantis items for No-Mantis-10. Completed action items: ============ from April 26 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - add a column for enhancement versus clarification AI/Mehdi - add a column for amount of work required. AI/Mehdi - add sheets for the various categores in the Google doc. AI/Mehdi - send out a link to the p1800 spreadsheet. AI/Mehdi - add a column for duplicates AI/All - send input on the list of categories. AI/ALL - until May 5th to provide any inputs on the spreadsheet. ============ from April 12 2010 meeting =================== AI/Mehdi - Look at the Google Docs and creaet spreadsheet for collaborative efforts. Also add cross committee column to the spreadsheet. AI/All - send inputs on any new items by April 24 2010, this is deadline for any item that is not already in the mantis database. AI/All - prioritize and categorize list of items that are in the spreadsheet to be reviewed during the next two sv-ec meetings. AI/Neil - email to cliff on proxy right --------------------------------------------- Summary table: Assigned Lead/Champions --------------------------------------------- 1 2848 Francoise 2 3002 Tom, Dave, Jonathan, Francoise, Arturo, Neil S., Cliff, Gord 3 3046 Gord, Franocise, Mark, Ray 4 1356 Tom [same with 3002] 5 3001 Jonathan, Tom, Francoise 6 2999 Tom, Ray, Arturo, 7 3003 [2987, 2988] Jonathan, Tom, Ray, Arturo, 8 3082 Daniel, Jonathan, 9 2845 Francoise, Mark, Alex Neil S., Gord? 10 2956 Steven, 11 2505 Neil S., Mark, Francoise 12 2735 Arturo, Steven, Gord, 13 1706 Mark, Steven, Francoise, 14 2488 Steven, Francoise, 15 2112 Dave, Steven, 16 3028 Arturo, Ray, Neil S., Mehdi, 17 2950 Francoise, 18 2794 Jonathan, Steven 19 2993 Tom, Ray, Swapnajit (cadence) 20 1442 Steven, 21 2953 Ray 22 1349 Steven 23 2949 Jonathan, Steven 24 2451 Steven, 25 2987 Jonathan (combining 2987, 2988, see 3003) ------------------------------------- [next 10] 26 3006 Ray, Steven, 27 3004 Tom 28 2998 Tom 29 2117 Cliff?? 30 No Mantis 6 could be linked with 2991 with sv-bc 31 2928 Ray, Arturo, 32 2787 ?? (Daniel)?? 33 2972 ?? (Daniel)?? 34 2996 Tom, 35 2988 already assigned (see 3003) 36 No Mantis 4 related to AOP (already covered) -------------------------------------------------------------- == List with estimates ======= hrs top 2t mantis Id 4 1 2848 12 2 3002 1 3 3046 16 4 1356 2 5 3001 3 6 2999 5 7 3003 8 8 3082 4 9 2845 0.5 10 2956 3 11 2505 4 12 2735 1 13 1706 2 14 2488 2 15 2112 2 16 3028 2 17 2950 1 18 2794 4 19 2993 0.5 20 1442 6 21 2953 0.5 22 1349 0.5 23 2949 4 24 2451 4 25 2987 92 total 46 (2hr sessions) 0.5 26 3006 4 27 3004 2 28 2998 4 29 2117 4 30 No Mantis 6 0.5 31 2928 4 32 2787 2 33 2972 2 34 2996 0 35 2988 0 36 No Mantis 4 23 total 11 sessions ====================================== top 25 Id Number of Votes weighted vote Summary Degrees of difficulty Cateogory Sub-Category 1 2848 7 159 Is it legal to assign an interface containing class declaration to a virtual interface med Virtual Interface and class 2 3002 8 125 Aspect Oriented Programming (AOP) features High class constraints 3 3046 8 112 Dotted names within inlined constraints Low class Strings/Arrays 4 1356 6 112 Multiple Inheritance High class Strings 5 3001 9 102 Proper Polymorphic behavior of instantiation low class Arrays 6 2999 7 99 Class Handle reference inside of Constraints med class constraints 7 3003 6 98 Constraint Composition High Randomization Strings 8 3082 7 96 (4) Ambiguity resolution (see slide 10 for examples of parts of the Standard that have been interpreted differently by different simulators) 9 2845 4 84 virtual interface type checking versus interface type that had been defparam'ed high Virtual Interface Misc / function proto 10 2956 4 76 clarify class 'process' definition (9.7 vs 18.13.3, 18.13.4, 18.13.5) low Process control 11 2505 4 76 class select: what is allowed after the dot? low class 12 2735 4 73 Ballot Comment #48: Chaining of method calls med class constraints 13 1706 4 72 Meaning of static prefix for virtual interface assignments Virtual Interfaces 14 2488 4 69 Are virtual method calls legal within class constructors? med VI OO classes 15 2112 6 69 Remove restrictions on NBA assigments to class members med class constraints 16 3028 6 68 constraints for unique array elements. Med Randomization 17 2950 4 67 virtual method prototype matching low class 18 2794 4 64 Clarify queue methods return status low class 19 2993 4 63 Cross cover points across different cover groups med Built-in Methods 20 1442 3 63 Clocking blocks legal in modports, missing from text description in 20.9 Functional Coverage 21 2953 6 61 Algorithmic generation of covergroup bin contents high clocking block 22 1349 5 61 fork/join_none: what if parent thread terminates without blocking statement? Functional Coverage 23 2949 4 60 LRM is silent about the semantics of referencing a clocking block output low Process control constraints 24 2451 6 58 Omitting body defaults med clocking block constraints 25 2987 6 56 Soft Constraints med class Misc / function proto 26 3006 5 55 LRM doesn't say explicitly what should happen if null pointer is randomized low class Data Types 27 3004 5 55 Ability to declare/qualify classes/methods/variables/constraints final med class Virtual Interface 28 2998 4 55 Solve Before enhanced low Randomization class 29 2117 3 52 Allow extending of covergroups in classes high Functional Coverage class 30 No Mantis 6 5 51 (3) Allow reuse of enumerated names (slide 31) cross-committee Randomization 31 2928 3 50 ambiguous restriction on function calls in constraint expressions low Randomization Randomization 32 2787 3 50 reference via scope operator to parametrized superclass item med class Randomization 33 2972 3 49 add class constructor/method, task/function overloading High class Randomization 34 2996 4 49 Method overloading High class Randomization 35 2988 2 48 Defaults Constraints med Randomization Process control 36 No Mantis 4 2 47 (1) AOP when-inheritance (slide 31) Class/AOP Functional Coverage