Re: FLOW disciplines and KCL

OK - just re-read 5.3.2 where the format
V(out) : V(in) = 0;
is allowed - as an _alternative_ to 
V(out) <+ V(Vout) + V(in);

I think the one restriction to an implicit
contribution is that NO OTHER contribution to that
branch is allowed. 

Yes.. they can be used with signal-flow and with
conservative nodes& branches. 

My point is that they are NOT the REASON why
signal-flow was defined.

Sorry I couldn't finish the earlier message earlier.
Jonathan 


--- Peter Liebmann <peterl@xpedion.com> wrote:

> Implicit equations can also be signal flow - why
> not?
> 
> Jonathan David wrote:
> > No, you are confusing implicit equations which
> support
> > having the simulator solve for the solution with
> > signal-flow which lets you use
> > --- peterl@xpedion.com <peterl@xpedion.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>I think the original idea behind signal flow is to
> > 
> > make it an "unknown" 
> > 
> >>in a differential algebraic equation so it can be
> > 
> > solved as part of the 
> > 
> >>system and then used.  As I originally stated,
> > 
> > something like
> > 
> >>"V(n1) <+ 2*V(n1) +1;" is definitally allowed.
> >>We can then use the simulator as a more general
> > 
> > solver.
> > 
> >>NOTE: A signal flow node should be the similar to
> a
> > 
> > free quantity in 
> > 
> >>VHDL-AMS.
> >>
> >>Peter Liebmann
> >>
> >>Marq Kole wrote:
> >>
> >>>Jonathan,
> >>>
> >>>A resulting limitation for the signal flow
> > 
> > disciplines connecting to a 
> > 
> >>>conservative discipline would be that a signal
> > 
> > flow node can have only 
> > 
> >>>one conservative instance connected to it, and
> > 
> > that all signal-flow 
> > 
> >>>instances need to have the same port direction,
> > 
> > i.e. all in or all out.
> > 
> >>>Should an inout port direction not be allowed for
> > 
> > signal flow models: it 
> > 
> >>>has to be either in or out. I can image a model
> > 
> > where a signal-flow port 
> > 
> >>>is either read or driven, dependent on a
> parameter
> > 
> > setting, but it 
> > 
> >>>cannot read and drive at the same time...
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>Marq
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Marq Kole
> >>>Competence Leader Analog Simulation, Philips ED&T
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Marq Kole/EHV/RESEARCH/PHILIPS wrote on
> 02-06-2006
> > 
> > 16:08:32:
> > 
> >>> > Jonathan,
> >>> >
> >>> > Your reply required some thinking before I
> > 
> > could answer; I'll also
> > 
> >>> > copy the reflector as I think this is relevant
> > 
> > to our discussions.
> > 
> >>> >
> >>> > Regards,
> >>> > Marq
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Marq Kole
> >>> > Competence Leader Analog Simulation, Philips
> > 
> > ED&T
> > 
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> > Jonathan David <jb_david@yahoo.com> wrote on
> > 
> > 31-05-2006 18:41:25:
> > 
> >>> >
> >>> > > Hi Marq,
> >>> > >
> >>> > > thanks for the reply. It looks like you
> > 
> > missed part of
> > 
> >>> > > my point.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Let me ask a question;  For a potential
> > 
> > nature, do you
> > 
> >>> > > expect KVL to be obeyed? I do, and I think
> > 
> > you do
> > 
> >>> > > also..
> >>> > > V(B) = V(A) + V(B,A)
> >>> > > V(A,gnd) + V(B,A) + V(gnd,B) = 0;
> >>>
> >>> > This is not necessarily the KVL: in
> mathematics
> > 
> > this is also known
> > 
> >>> > as associativity. If you consider 0 to be the
> > 
> > mathematical ground
> > 
> >>> > i..e reference, then with V(B) = 2 and V(A) =
> 3
> > 
> > you say:
> > 
> >>> >
> >>> > 2 = 3 + (2 - 3)
> >>> > (3 - 0) + (2 - 3) + (0 - 2) = 0
> >>> >  
> >>> > > therefor when I flip to the FLOW side, I
> > 
> > expect KCL to
> > 
> >>> > > be obeyed.
> >>> > > KCL: Sum(I)@node = 0;
> >>> > >
> >>> > > In fact if it isn't, it wouldn't be possible
> > 
> > to
> > 
> >>> > > connect the flow type to the flow connection
> > 
> > of the
> > 
> >>> > > compatible conservative discipline.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > but your example doesn't show a violation.
> >>> > > Without the context (how the block is
> > 
> > connected) we
> > 
> >>> > > can't talk about KCL.
> >>> > > Your example has no context.. its not
> > 
> > connected up
> > 
> >>> > > with any thing else, and without the
> > 
> > connection nodes,
> > === Message Truncated === 
> > 
> 
>