Re: Some merged_datatype.pdf feedback.

From: Ken Kundert <ken_at_.....>
Date: Mon Jun 05 2006 - 12:12:32 PDT
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Graham,
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    Thanks for your response. I took a look at your syntax and here is
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what I found.
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It still appears that an event trigger (->) is not allowed in an analog
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block.
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I noticed that when declaring named events that they can be declared
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with dimensions, but that the syntax for the event control statements do
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not support specifying the dimension.
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Finally, I noticed that @* and @(*) are valid event control statements
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in the digital context but not in the analog. I have no idea what they
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mean, but I thought I would point out the inconsistency.
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-Ken
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Graham Helwig wrote:
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> Hello Ken,
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> 
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> Please see my comments below:
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> 
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>> 1. In the 2.2 LRM the event_control syntax definition seems ambiguous.
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>>    The event_control statement is defined in terms of an
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>>    event_expression, but an event_expression is never defined. Rather
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>>    analog_event_expression and digital_event_expressions are defined,
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>>    but it is never made clear how they relate to an event_expression.
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>>   2. It does not appear as if one can trigger a named event within an
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>>    analog block (the -> operator is not mentioned in the 2.2 LRM from
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>>    what I can tell).
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>>   
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> 
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> I'm aware of a number of these event expression related problems in LRM
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> 2.2. Have a look at the event expression syntax of
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> http://www.verilog.org/verilog-ams/htmlpages/public-docs/merged_syntax.pdf.
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> Does this address your needs?
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> 
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>> 3. A change in an analog discrete variable (an integer) cannot trigger
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>>    a change in a continuous assignment nor in an event expression.
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>>    (This is ambiguous in the LRM and not allowed in the Cadence
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>>    implementation.)
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>>   
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> 
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> Agreed, it would be help for continuous assignment statements to be
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> sensitive to discrete integer variables. IF this is to be allowed then
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> it should be document in section 6.
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> 
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>> Note, between restrictions 2 & 3, it is not possible to have analog
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>> behavior trigger changes in digital signals without there being a cross
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>> function involved, and and one cannot use cross functions on integers.
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>>
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>> 4. Cannot have multiple analog blocks. This unnecessary restriction
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>>    forces dissimilar behavior to be combined into a single block,
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>>    which is unlike the original Verilog language. It also limits
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>>    the language support for multirate simulation techniques.
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>>   
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> 
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> Agreed multiple analog blocks would be useful to better organize the
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> contents of a large mixed-signal module to be more modular instead of
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> lumping the analog behavior together (away from it related digital
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> blocks) in one part of a module description.
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> 
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>> 5. At some point I remember there being a restriction that a node
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>>    declared as being ground could not be the first node listed in
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>>    an access function, but I cannot find that restriction in the
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>>    v2.2 LRM. Is that still a restriction? If so it should be removed
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>>    as it means that the behavior must be written knowing which node
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>>    is ground, making it more difficult to copy and paste code fragments.
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>>   
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> 
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> Yes, I believe it has been removed. Currently nothing is documented
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> about ground terminals. I figure it was good to add a short  statement
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> to the affect that ground nets are treated no different to non-ground
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> nets when used as branch terminals.
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> 
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>> 6. It would be nice to have real valued variables act as registers.
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>>    In other words, it would be nice if reals could act as ports without
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>>    needing a continuous assignment to a wreal. In this way real becomes
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>>    something like a 64 bit register with implied $realtobits() and
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>>    $bitstoreal() conversions, with the difference being that you could
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>>    use a scalar wire to connect to the port. It would be important
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>>    to pass this enhancement back to verilog itself, along with the
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>>    need for a wreal, as this represents an large issue when trying
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>>    to use Verilog-AMS to develop pure verilog models of analog IP.
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>>    To develop a pin accurate verilog model of analog IP you need to
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>>    have a simple scalar pin for each bias line (vdd, vss, etc.),
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>>    and that pin needs to pass a real value. Today you cannot do
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>>    this with verilog, you need a 64bit buss, meaning that the model
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>>    is no longer pin accurate.
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>>   
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> 
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> I would also include connectmodules with a wreal digital port need to be
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> considered. OK, connectmodule don't support vector digital ports, and
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> wreal is treated as a 64-bit vector. The difference is that the wreal
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> vector is always treated as a scalar.
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> 
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>> 7. Cadence's implementation does not support transition sensitivity of
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>>    a digital register in an analog block. Thus, ...
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>>        analog begin
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>>            @(regvar)
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>>                ;
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>>            ...
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>>        end
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>>    is not allowed if regvar is associated with the digital context. I
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>>    tried this with regvar being both a real number and a register. When
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>>    using a register I could replace it with "posedge regvar or negedge
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>>    regvar" and it worked). I believe support for this feature is implied
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>>    in the current LRM but not completely spelled out. It would be good
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>>    if we could clearly indicate that this was supported, and that regvar
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>>    is allowed to be a real variable associated with a digital context.
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>>   
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	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 221) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 221) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> The latest merged syntax should make it clear that this type of event is
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 222) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 222) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> allowed in the analog context. I also wish that Cadence
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 223) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 223) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> implementation would  support this type of event to.
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 224) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 224) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 225) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 225) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>> 8. Currently $bitstoreal() et al is not supported within an analog
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 226) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 226) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>    context.
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 227) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 227) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>   
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 228) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 228) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 229) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 229) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> Agreed.
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 230) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 230) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 231) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 231) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>> 10. Finally, this is probably a longer term project, but we need to take
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 232) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 232) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>    on the issue of making connect modules sensitive to power supplies,
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 233) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 233) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>    particularly local power supplies. With the heavy emphasis on power
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 234) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 234) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>    management, and the associated use of multiple power domains and the
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 235) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 235) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>    disabling and enabling of power supplies, this is becoming
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 236) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 236) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>    increasingly important.
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 237) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 237) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
>>
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 238) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 238) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 239) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 239) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 240) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 240) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> I absolute agree. I have been regularly encountering similar problems in
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 241) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 241) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> my work, the current work-around is tedious and results in slower
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 242) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 242) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> simulations. Like Jonathan, I'll be happy to help define a solution to
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 243) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 243) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> this problem.
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 244) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 244) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 245) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 245) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> Regards
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 246) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 246) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> Graham
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 247) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 247) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 248) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 248) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Bareword found where operator expected at (eval 249) line 34, near "--L386"
	(Missing operator before L386?)
Number found where operator expected at (eval 249) line 34, near "--82"
	(Missing operator before 82?)
> 
Received on Mon Jun 5 12:12:13 2006

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