RE: Minutes of the Verilog-AMS meeting: 10th July 2008

Note that 1364-2005 itself has a parallel subclause saying where the
system tasks and functions are. Section 3.7.3 says,

"The $identifier system task/function can be defined in three places:
- A standard set of $identifier system tasks and functions, as defined
in Clause 17 and Clause 18.
- Additional $identifier system tasks and functions defined using the
PLI, as described in Clause 20.
- Additional $identifier system tasks and functions defined by software
implementations." 

I suspect the incorrect references point to Verilog-AMS 2.2.
There Clause 8 is Mixed-signal and 8.11 is Supplementary driver access
functions.
Clause 10 there is System tasks and functions.
Clause 12 is Using VPI routines.
Clause 11 is Compiler directives.
That seems to correspond almost perfectly to the erroneous references.

Regards,
Shalom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoffrey.Coram [mailto:geoffrey.coram@analog.com] 
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:30 PM
> To: Bresticker, Shalom
> Cc: Sri Chandra; Verilog-AMS LRM Committee; Wilmore, Jim
> Subject: Re: Minutes of the Verilog-AMS meeting: 10th July 2008
> 
> I didn't know if 1364-2005 had other $identifiers not in the 
> main "system tasks and functions" clause.
> 
> But, I agree with you that the extra references should be cut 
> from the LRM; we should create a mantis item to track down 
> why these references were there (was there something in that Clause in
> 1364-1995 or -2001?).  The whole set of references were added 
> in some LRM 2.3 draft -- LRM 2.2 has only a reference to 
> Section 10 of the V-AMS LRM, so clearly someone did some work 
> to add these references ...
> 
> -Geoffrey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bresticker, Shalom wrote:
> > But the references in question are in the dashed item referring to 
> > 1364-2005, not internally to the V-AMS LRM. So the extra 
> references to
> > 1364-2005 are still wrong. Am I being dense?
> > 
> > Shalom
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Geoffrey.Coram [mailto:geoffrey.coram@analog.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:19 PM
> >> To: Bresticker, Shalom
> >> Cc: Sri Chandra; Verilog-AMS LRM Committee; Wilmore, Jim
> >> Subject: Re: Minutes of the Verilog-AMS meeting: 10th July 2008
> >>
> >> It was probably my fault that this was listed as low-priority; it 
> >> seemed like a lot of work to track down the original 
> intent, and it 
> >> didn't occur to me that copying the existing text to 
> Mantis would be 
> >> a better way to mark the issue for later attention than 
> leaving it in 
> >> the LRM.
> >>
> >> I had a vague sense that maybe there were $functions mentioned in 
> >> scattered chapters, specific to the main topic of the chapter -- 
> >> things like $param_given that is mentioned in 6.3.5 -- and 
> wondered 
> >> if there were any $functions that were not also described 
> in Clause 
> >> 9.  If an $identifier is defined outside the list of 
> places in 2.8.3, 
> >> is someone going to be upset?
> >>
> >> -Geoffrey
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bresticker, Shalom wrote:
> >>> Hi, Sri.
> >>>
> >>> The correct references are already there.
> >>> The additional references are erroneous.
> >>>
> >>> Regardless, there is no point in leaving references that
> >> are clearly
> >>> wrong.
> >>> If you are not going to change them, then delete them now,
> >> and you can
> >>> always add others later.
> >>>
> >>> If you had written 2+2=5 and discovered the error, you 
> would either 
> >>> correct it to 4 or delete it. You would not leave a
> >> sentence that you
> >>> know to be wrong. It is different than a sentence which is
> >> partially
> >>> correct and partially incorrect, where you might say that 
> there is 
> >>> some benefit in leaving it.
> >>>
> >>> Can you point to a single benefit from leaving the
> >> incorrect references?
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Shalom
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Sri Chandra [mailto:sri.chandra@freescale.com]
> >>>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:09 AM
> >>>> To: Bresticker, Shalom
> >>>> Cc: Verilog-AMS LRM Committee; Wilmore, Jim
> >>>> Subject: Re: Minutes of the Verilog-AMS meeting: 10th July 2008
> >>>>
> >>>> Shalom,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for your response and clarifying the text on that.
> >>>>
> >>>> We had a bit of discussion on this item and we were not 
> clear what 
> >>>> the references are intended for, and what the correct references 
> >>>> should be for both the system tasks and functions.
> >>>> It was acknowledged during the meeting that the references
> >> may be in
> >>>> error (due to chapter
> >>>> addition/deletions) or sections having been moved. 
> However, it was 
> >>>> felt in the discussions that it was probably a minor issue which 
> >>>> might take more time to actually figure out the correct ones and 
> >>>> leave them there.
> >>>> May be not the best approach but since during the
> >> discussions it was
> >>>> felt as a minor item.
> >>>>
> >>>> I understand your concern, and greatly appreciate the
> >> feedback that
> >>>> we would like to incorporate in the LRM, and apologize
> >> that you find
> >>>> this particular decision ridiculous.
> >>>> I will take another look at this particular issue that you have 
> >>>> mentioned.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Sri
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bresticker, Shalom wrote:
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regarding the cross-references to IEEE Std 1364-2005 claues
> >>>> for system
> >>>>> tasks and functions and compiler directives, the internal
> >>>> references
> >>>>> appear immediately following the texts in question:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The $identifier system task or function can be defined in
> >>>> five places
> >>>>> - A standard set of $identifier system tasks and functions,
> >>>> as defined
> >>>>> in Clause 8, Clause 10, Clause 17 and Clause 18 of IEEE std
> >>>> 1364-2005
> >>>>> Verilog HDL.
> >>>>> - Additional $identifier system tasks and functions defined
> >>>> using the
> >>>>> PLI, as described in Clause 12 and Clause 20 of IEEE std
> >> 1364-2005
> >>>>> Verilog HDL.
> >>>>> - Additional $identifier system tasks and functions defined
> >>>> in Clause
> >>>>> 4 and Clause 9 of this standard.
> >>>>> - Additional $identifier system tasks and functions defined
> >>>> using the
> >>>>> VPI as described in Clause 11 and Clause 12 of this standard.
> >>>>> - Additional $identifier system tasks and functions defined by 
> >>>>> software implementations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The `identifier compiler directive construct can be defined
> >>>> in three
> >>>>> places
> >>>>> - A standard set of `identifier compiler directives defined
> >>>> in Clause
> >>>>> 11 and Clause 19 of IEEE std 1364-2005 Verilog HDL.
> >>>>> - Additional `identifier compiler directives defined in
> >>>> Clause 10 of
> >>>>> this standard.
> >>>>> - Additional `identifier compiler directives defined by 
> software 
> >>>>> implementations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thus the references to Clauses 8, 10, 11, and 12 are
> >>>> clearly wrong and
> >>>>> it is ridiculous to leave them. The correct references do
> >>>> appear and
> >>>>> therefore these should be simply deleted. Even if you can
> >>>> claim that
> >>>>> maybe they were intended to refer to something else and
> >> you want to
> >>>>> find out what that was, it makes no sense to leave them 
> in their 
> >>>>> current form. Delete them now, and if you find in the future an 
> >>>>> additional reference that should have appeared, add it
> >>>> then. As they
> >>>>> are now, they do not help anyone, and just confuse.
> >>>>>  
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> * [Clause 2.8.3, pg 32]: The references to Clause 8, 10,
> >> and 12 of
> >>>>>> 1364-2005 may be incorrect. This was discussed in the
> >>>> committee and
> >>>>>> its unclear at this point whether some of the clauses
> >> are internal
> >>>>>> references to Verilog-AMS document itself. Also chapter
> >>>> numbers have
> >>>>>> changed in p1364 and LRM2.3 and need to do detailed
> >> search for any
> >>>>>> reference to system task/function on these before 
> removing these 
> >>>>>> clauses.
> >>>>>> ==> *Note:* This is not planned for this version and
> >> will be taken
> >>>>>> for next revision and also deemed as not very critical.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * [Clause 2.8.4, pg 32]: The reference to Clause 11 of
> >>>> 1364 might be
> >>>>>> incorrect. This was discussed in the committee and its
> >> unclear at
> >>>>>> this point whether some of the clauses are internal
> >> references to
> >>>>>> Verilog-AMS document itself. Also chapter numbers have 
> changed in
> >>>>>> p1364 and LRM2.3 and need to do detailed search for any
> >>>> reference to
> >>>>>> system task/function on these before removing these clauses.
> >>>>>> ==> *Note:* This is not planned for this version and
> >> will be taken
> >>>>>> for next revision and also deemed as not very critical.
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Shalom
> >>>>>
> > 
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